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#Post#: 8392--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: TootsNYC Date: July 11, 2018, 3:58 pm
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[quote]You should tell your mother what you've done, and ask
your mother that when grandmother calls your mother, she should
say that this is between grandmother and you and not discuss it
any further.
[/quote]
I sort of want you to give your mom a script that says: "Well,
Grandma, I know she was really, really hurt by what you said.
And I can understand why. You will need to speak with her about
this."
Sometimes I think people need to hear from a third party about
the depth of the hurt they've caused. And also to hear that a
third party thinks the hurt feelings were justified.
(but not if your mom can't be trusted--and it sounds like she
sort of can't)
#Post#: 8396--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: oogyda Date: July 11, 2018, 4:11 pm
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Honestly, I think it's a bit hypocritical to write this;
"Um. I'm fully an adult. I'm 28. I pay bills, I've voted, I pay
taxes and everything! What is my Mom going to do?"
in your OP and then be frustrated with your mother when she went
be a go-between.
You want the deed done, you just don't want to do it yourself.
Time to prove yourself to be the adult you proclaim to be and
either talk to Grandma and dis-invite her or accept that she'll
be coming to the wedding.
#Post#: 8400--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: BunnyAndBandit Date: July 11, 2018, 5:00 pm
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[quote author=oogyda link=topic=519.msg8396#msg8396
date=1531343465]
Honestly, I think it's a bit hypocritical to write this;
"Um. I'm fully an adult. I'm 28. I pay bills, I've voted, I pay
taxes and everything! What is my Mom going to do?"
in your OP and then be frustrated with your mother when she went
be a go-between.
You want the deed done, you just don't want to do it yourself.
Time to prove yourself to be the adult you proclaim to be and
either talk to Grandma and dis-invite her or accept that she'll
be coming to the wedding.
[/quote]
I disagree. I never told my Mom to go between in at all. She's
also an adult and can (and should!) shut down those
conversations. There's no reason for my grandmother to ask my
mom about them at all. When my Mom expressed to me her
discomfort, I told her not to speak to her about if she doesn't
want to.
#Post#: 8401--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: BunnyAndBandit Date: July 11, 2018, 5:03 pm
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[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=519.msg8392#msg8392
date=1531342733]
[quote]You should tell your mother what you've done, and ask
your mother that when grandmother calls your mother, she should
say that this is between grandmother and you and not discuss it
any further.
[/quote]
I sort of want you to give your mom a script that says: "Well,
Grandma, I know she was really, really hurt by what you said.
And I can understand why. You will need to speak with her about
this."
Sometimes I think people need to hear from a third party about
the depth of the hurt they've caused. And also to hear that a
third party thinks the hurt feelings were justified.
She just keeps telling my Grandmother "Oh, I don't know. I'm not
sure about that. She hasn't decided." instead of shutting her
down. Which is probably why my Grandmother keeps asking her,
because she hasn't told her she doesn't want to have these
conversations.
(but not if your mom can't be trusted--and it sounds like she
sort of can't)
[/quote]
#Post#: 8402--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: BunnyAndBandit Date: July 11, 2018, 5:11 pm
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[quote author=GardenGal link=topic=519.msg8384#msg8384
date=1531340609]
OP - First, congratulations on the baby and your upcoming
wedding!
[quote]Things seemed better when I had my first child, and I've
made it a point to never not take my kid around my Grandmother,
as they adore one another. I do think on some level, she was a
little scandalized because in her day and age, it just wasn't
done the way I'm doing it.[/quote]
This comment makes me think that because your grandmother has a
great relationship with your first child (good for you for
encouraging this!), you probably have a good relationship with
her in general. Now it's time for you to decide what you'd like
your relationship to be going forward. (When I was about 14, I
remember saying to my mom that I just realized that she'd been
married longer than I was alive. My mom, who had been born in
1912, drew herself up to her full 5'2" tall and said, very
seriously, "Well, I should hope so.")
If you would like to have a good relationship with your
grandmother going forward, and you think she's capable of doing
this and not holding your got-married-while-pregnant status over
your head, here's what I'd do. I'd call her and say, "Grandma,
I was tremendously hurt the last time we spoke. You said I was
an embarrassment and other deliberately hurtful things that I
will not ignore, and since you did not support me in planning to
get married I decided not to invite you and do not want you to
attend. Fiance, older child, and I are sorry that you cannot
join us for that happy occasion. I am sad that your attitude
means that I can no longer allow you to be part of our lives.
However, now that you're asking my mother about when and where
the wedding will be, I wonder if you thought you'd be welcome
without first sincerely apologizing to me for your comments?
That's not going to happen, so if you'd like to apologize so
that we can repair our relationship I'd be very happy about
that, because I think that deep inside you really do want the
best for all of us."
And then stop talking and let the silence stretch as long as
necessary. If she hangs up the phone, or doesn't offer a
sincere apology, you've got your answer. I am hoping she will
sincerely apologize ("I was so upset because in my day such a
wedding would be a scandal, but I know things have changed, and
I'm sorry for what I said.").
And if her apology sounds less than sincere, ("Well, I still
think it's disgraceful that you're getting married in your
condition...") you can say, "Grandma, I'm sorry you feel that
way. Do not come to the wedding and do not contact me until
you're ready to sincerely apologize," and hang up the phone.
You should tell your mother what you've done, and ask your
mother that when grandmother calls your mother, she should say
that this is between grandmother and you and not discuss it any
further.
I think it's important to clear the air now so that grandmother
understands how serious you are. How would you feel if, after
your 2nd child is born, grandmother wanted to only have a
relationship with your older child? This wouldn't be fair to
either child, which is one more reason you need to begin as you
mean to go on. Hope you get a sincere apology quickly!
[/quote]
Thanks for your congratulations! We're excited!
I've tolerated a lot from her by telling myself "Well, she's
family, she's older, this and this and this." This just really
crossed a line for me. I don't really think anyone should 'have'
to allow their family to treat them in a hurtful way just
because they're family.
I wouldn't tolerate her treating my kids that way, you're
entirely correct. It's okay to just be really close to one kid,
it's not okay to be deliberately cold to another.
I really appreciate your template there, that's what I had in
mind. It's clear, it's concise, it isn't beating around the
bush. It's what happened, how I felt, and how I will be moving
forward with it. I don't think she's going to apologize, but at
least I'll have like--made my expectations clear.
Again, I'm fine that she feels that way about it. She's find to
feel how she feels, everyone is allowed to their feelings. I
don't think it's okay be nasty like she was. Especially because,
oddly, when I first old her about the pregnancy she was fine
about the wedding thing. It was several days later after she'd
considered it that she decided it wasn't appropriate. Just
weirdness all around.
#Post#: 8455--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: bopper Date: July 12, 2018, 10:28 am
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I would also take into account the likelihood of
grandmadramallama making a scene. Is this an anomaly or normal
behavior?
#Post#: 8482--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: BunnyAndBandit Date: July 12, 2018, 6:19 pm
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[quote author=bopper link=topic=519.msg8455#msg8455
date=1531409317]
I would also take into account the likelihood of
grandmadramallama making a scene. Is this an anomaly or normal
behavior?
[/quote]
It's pretty normal for her. :(
#Post#: 8506--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: Aleko Date: July 13, 2018, 1:53 am
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I have a crumbling copy of the original version of Miss Manners'
Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, first published 1979,
which contains this item of Q&A (and a quick check with Google
Books confirms that the current revised version still includes
it):
[quote]DEAR MISS MANNERS:
My niece is getting married next month in a long white dress
after living with the man three years and having two children.
Do you think this is proper? One little girl will be flower
girl. Having a reception afterwards too.
GENTLE READER:
This event comes under a particular category of "Proper" known
as "High time". in this area, there is no time for quibbling
over dresses or other accessories. Go and wish the couple joy.
You cannot accuse them of rushing into matrimony without due
consideration. [/quote]
Which seems to pretty much cover your situation. Where has your
grandmother lived for the last 39 years, that the notion of
people who live together deciding to get married is such a
shock? Anyway, it's my understanding that Judith Martin's
pronouncements on American manners have pretty much Biblical
authority, so that might just possibly be useful.
#Post#: 8516--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: Hmmm Date: July 13, 2018, 7:49 am
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[quote author=Aleko link=topic=519.msg8506#msg8506
date=1531464796]
I have a crumbling copy of the original version of Miss Manners'
Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, first published 1979,
which contains this item of Q&A (and a quick check with Google
Books confirms that the current revised version still includes
it):
[quote]DEAR MISS MANNERS:
My niece is getting married next month in a long white dress
after living with the man three years and having two children.
Do you think this is proper? One little girl will be flower
girl. Having a reception afterwards too.
GENTLE READER:
This event comes under a particular category of "Proper" known
as "High time". in this area, there is no time for quibbling
over dresses or other accessories. Go and wish the couple joy.
You cannot accuse them of rushing into matrimony without due
consideration. [/quote]
Which seems to pretty much cover your situation. Where has your
grandmother lived for the last 39 years, that the notion of
people who live together deciding to get married is such a
shock? Anyway, it's my understanding that Judith Martin's
pronouncements on American manners have pretty much Biblical
authority, so that might just possibly be useful.
[/quote]
I think it is just people's thoughts on the purpose of a
wedding. My DH and I lived together for 2 years prior to
marriage (25 years ago) as did many of our couple friends. When
we decided to marry, a friend of ours who was about 10 years
older (we were 27/28) was stunned that we were going to do a
traditional wedding. She assumed that having lived together we
would do a small civil marriage. When I asked why, her thoughts
were if we had decided to live together that we had made our
life long commitment to each other at that time. I explained
that no, I did see our living together as a preliminary to
deciding we could make it as a couple. And our wedding was our
public statement that we were committed for life to each other.
So I do understand when people are puzzled when a couple who
have lived together for 5 plus years and have a couple of kids
together decide to have a huge wedding proclaiming their
commitment to each other. You sort of assume that happened
before they chose to start a family.
#Post#: 8553--------------------------------------------------
Re: When Can You Consider Yourself Invited?
By: Aleko Date: July 13, 2018, 11:23 am
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[quote]I think it is just people's thoughts on the purpose of a
wedding. My DH and I lived together for 2 years prior to
marriage (25 years ago) as did many of our couple friends. When
we decided to marry, a friend of ours who was about 10 years
older (we were 27/28) was stunned that we were going to do a
traditional wedding. She assumed that having lived together we
would do a small civil marriage. When I asked why, her thoughts
were if we had decided to live together that we had made our
life long commitment to each other at that time. I explained
that no, I did see our living together as a preliminary to
deciding we could make it as a couple. And our wedding was our
public statement that we were committed for life to each other.
So I do understand when people are puzzled when a couple who
have lived together for 5 plus years and have a couple of kids
together decide to have a huge wedding proclaiming their
commitment to each other. You sort of assume that happened
before they chose to start a family.[/quote]
Oh, I agree. My DH and I also lived together "in sin" for a
year or so, as did both my brothers and their DWs, and my own
parents, and all of us got married before starting a family.
That (or, OK, just after starting one, if you miscalculate!)
would seem to be the most logical time for a living-together
couple to formalise their commitment into marriage, if they plan
to do it at all. I can well understand OP's grandmother being
bemused; it's the shock and outrage I don't get.
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