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#Post#: 7319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: June 29, 2018, 5:58 pm
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I'm curious why the flight attendant came over.
I forgot to put my phone in Airplane Mode on my last flight. I
wasn't using it, but I forgot.
Was this passenger on the phone, or something? Why did the
flight-attendant single her out?
#Post#: 7326--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: LurkingGurl
Date: June 29, 2018, 6:15 pm
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You'd think she must have been doing something overt because
otherwise she could have just said "Oh, i'm just playing a game"
or "just reading a book"--admitting to things that are able to
be done offline.
The only thing I can think of that she would be doing that would
be overt is actually talking on the phone. And I have seen
people do that. In fact, it's very common for people to blow
off the instruction to put their devices in airplane mode--and
you can tell!
On a small plane like that though I bet it's harder to hide it.
I don't mess with FA. They don't get paid enough for what they
have to deal with.
#Post#: 7329--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: June 29, 2018, 6:32 pm
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--- Quote from: Mary Sunshine Rain link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=432.msg7278#msg7278
date=1530298281]
> [quote author=lakey link=topic=432.msg7268#msg7268
date=1530291912]
> [quote]If I can't challenge them in the name of "security"
then they darn well better display professional enough behavior
to make me believe they are capable of acting professional when
the time comes.
--- End Quote ---
That's all good, except any challenging needs to be done once
the flight is over. I've spent evenings watching multiple
youtubes of people being removed from flights. There are a lot
of them. Sometimes the FA's appear to be making a big deal out
of nothing. The airline employees make the decision, like it or
not. In an argument, the passenger always loses. When other
passengers get involved it only makes matters worse. These
arguments don't only affect the couple of people involved in the
argument. They affect all of the other passengers, and any
passengers on other flights that that plane may be making for
the rest of the day.
These things cause delays, which means other passengers may miss
important business meetings, connecting flights, and other
travel plans, such as getting to a cruise. In most of these
instances one to three people were kicked off the plane, but in
a few the whole flight was canceled. All passengers had to leave
the plane. If you had been on that flight and had "rallied the
other passengers" and gotten them worked up, that very easily
could have been the result. If you've ever been at an airport
when a flight gets canceled and watched people running like a
mob to make alternate flights, it's a nightmare. Arguing while
on the plane only makes the situation worse. You won't win.
In the video of this incident, neither party was nasty or
aggressive. No one was yelling or swearing. No one was out of
control. It wasn't a big deal at all. The FA should have checked
to make sure that the phone was in AM, and then let it go.
Instead both of them got into a drawn out back and forth about
who said or heard what, or blah, blah, blah. The whole
conversation was pointless. It didn't look to me that the
passenger needed to be kicked off the flight. However, the way
to deal with that is after the flight is over, which is what the
passenger did by putting the video online. Let the public see it
and judge for themselves. THAT is effective.
[/quote]
Your missing my primary point. I would not feel as a passenger
that the FA in that video would be willing to perform her duties
in case of an emergency. Her overly aggressive behavior with the
initial passenger and then immediate threat to the man filming
to me implies someone who does not care in the least about the
passengers. And honestly, the way she was glaring at the cabin
made her seem a little unstable.
So, yeah, I'd rather be kicked off the flight than have to
depend on her. And my behavior might cause inconvenience for
others. But as it's often said, safety trumps etiquette. As long
as people are willing to cower to these FA's who abuse their
position for fear of reprisal, the airlines will do nothing to
address this type of behavior.
Sure I can lodge a complaint afterwards. But I also know that in
most airlines, the FA's are given a pass on most passenger
complaints unless it causes delays or public relations problems.
They only start getting in trouble if there is significant
number of complaints. And let's face it, once off the plane most
people are not going to be willing to follow up with a formal
complaint so their behavior never gets checked. And because most
crews seldom fly together anymore, there is not senior attendant
to address performance issues that occur on flights.
I'm not anti FA's. I've logged more than a million miles flying.
Most FA's are professional, courteous, and competent. I've had a
few that I thought should be a little politer to the passengers
but I've only had one confrontation with one.
[/quote]
The FA is trying to make sure that safety protocols are followed
by making sure that people's devices are in airplane mode. The
passenger was not complying. The passenger was the one putting
your life in danger, so really, the FA being overbearing is
"safety trumps etiquette." So, by your own metric you shouldn't
be taking exception to what she is doing.
The proper response of that passenger was to be completely
contrite, apologize for not following the prior directions and
show that her phone was in airplane mode. Or really, she could
have said nothing and put her phone in airplane mode without
also complaining the the FA was standing over her making sure
that she did as she was told.
But, I think safety trumps etiquette is what the FA was doing in
the first place.
[/quote]
You must have more access to video than I did. The only video I
saw never showed the passenger saying anything. I only saw the
FA acting extremely inappropriate. Can you point me to your
source that shows the passenger arguing and not complying?
Also, my opinion of her is primarily based on her reaction to
the man filming, not her interaction (which I stated I had
little knowledge of based on the video) with the primary
passenger.
And, lastly, I am very skeptical that airplane is actually
needed since no European flight requires it. So I have low
expectation that the woman was endangering the other passengers,
especially since the flight was still on the ground.
I've seen FA's do the walk through to make sure that AP mode is
on. If someone is still on a call or is still texting they say
"Please move to airplane mode" and then they move on checking
other rows. They then come back up the aisle. If someone still
hasn't complied, then they say it again with more force and wait
till the person does it and they say LOUDLY that the plane can
not take off till they move to airplane mode. They use peer
pressure to shame the passenger to complying. They do not act
like this FA. They don't start threatening. And they don't
threaten an innocent bystander who is trying to take up for
someone they see as being abused by someone in power.
#Post#: 7335--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: LurkingGurl
Date: June 29, 2018, 7:14 pm
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The FA had already told the whole plane several times--this
according to what the FA said to the passenger in the video.
"Crew instructions means crew instructions. You were asked
several times during the announcement to turn your phone into
airplane mode."
So, the video doesn't start until after the argument has
started.
We know from the passenger's post that the FA came over to tell
her personally to put it on AM and that she then stood there to
make sure that she did it.
"I told her, 'I know how to turn on airplane mode — you don’t
have to stand over me,'"
The passenger doesn't say that she has already complied. She
complains that the FA is standing there while she is doing it.
The point is that 1, she should have done it prior to that. And
2, having to be instructed personally, instead of just doing it,
she is now giving the FA a hard time about making sure she does
it.
Telling the FA "you don't have to stand over me" after failing
to abide by crew instructions is why she got booted from the
plan. By the time she was complying, she was doing it in a
snotty way.
#Post#: 7346--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: June 29, 2018, 8:04 pm
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I would be she felt the flight attendant was snotty in standing
over her to make sure she did it.
This is what I thought of when I watched that video:
"Sometimes people use 'respect' to mean 'treating someone like a
person' and sometimes they use 'respect' to mean 'treating
someone like an authority.'
"And sometimes people who are used to being treated like an
authority say, 'If you won’t respect me, I won’t respect you,'
and they mean, 'If you won’t treat me like an authority, I won’t
treat you like a person.'"
#Post#: 7367--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: HenrysMom
Date: June 30, 2018, 12:56 am
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It’s all very well and good to talk about mutual respect, etc.,
but as someone mentioned up thread, the staff rules the roost.
As we’ve seen time and again, people who argue with the
attendants, pilots, or marshals are going to be removed, right
or wrong. Sure, one could videotape and send to corporate, but
in the meantime, they’re stranded and out of luck.
As far as encouraging an entire plane of passengers to mutiny
“in solidarity,” yeah, that’s not going to work. Everyone will
just get thrown off the plane.
#Post#: 7381--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: June 30, 2018, 11:32 am
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--- Quote from: HenrysMom link ---
>
> It’s all very well and good to talk about mutual respect,
etc., but as someone mentioned up thread, the staff rules the
roost. As we’ve seen time and again, people who argue with the
attendants, pilots, or marshals are going to be removed, right
or wrong. Sure, one could videotape and send to corporate, but
in the meantime, they’re stranded and out of luck.
>
> As far as encouraging an entire plane of passengers to mutiny
“in solidarity,” yeah, that’s not going to work. Everyone will
just get thrown off the plane.
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: HenrysMom link ---
>
> It’s all very well and good to talk about mutual respect,
etc., but as someone mentioned up thread, the staff rules the
roost. As we’ve seen time and again, people who argue with the
attendants, pilots, or marshals are going to be removed, right
or wrong. Sure, one could videotape and send to corporate, but
in the meantime, they’re stranded and out of luck.
>
> As far as encouraging an entire plane of passengers to mutiny
“in solidarity,” yeah, that’s not going to work. Everyone will
just get thrown off the plane.
>
--- End Quote ---
But that's my point. I'm ok with loosing this battle, if it can
add to the change in the industry. I'm tired of seeing tons of
videos with FAs and staff being absolutely terrible to the
passengers in the name of "safety". Until people are willing to
be inconvenienced for a day to stand up for passenger rights,
FA's will continue to be out of control.
And again, I'm more concerned about her behavior toward the man
filming. I can understand her being "put out" but the woman not
immediately complying with her request. But her response to the
man was completely out of line, as was her continuing to stand
there and argue with the passenger once the phone was in
airplane mode. The whole issue would have been resolved that
once she confirmed the phone was in airplane mode she just moved
on and not engaged. But she was bound and determined to stand
there and argue her point. The passenger couldn't disenage and
move on because she was seated. The only person who could have
de-escalated the issue was the FA. And it is that lack of
control that makes me believe that she would not be able to
perform her role in case of an emergency.
#Post#: 7384--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: Moose
Date: June 30, 2018, 12:04 pm
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I fly, a lot. And since the flying isn't the destination, but
the journey, I would be very upset if I missed that
funeral/connecting flight/cruise ship/event because one person
decided to stand, fist in the air, screaming "viva la
revolucion!" and got our entire flight massively delayed or even
canceled. The thought "Oh, that person is so strong and brave!"
would never even cross my mind. Many other thoughts, none of
which are permissible here, would indeed cross my mind.
Honestly, I don't really care if the FAs fawn over me like I am
the Duchess of Cambridge or if they barely glance at me when
they bring me my plastic cup of coke. I just want to get to my
destination on time and no part of me would thank the person who
decided the airplane, before take off or during the flight, was
the place to stage their coup.
#Post#: 7387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: Isisnin
Date: June 30, 2018, 12:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> [quote author=HenrysMom link=topic=432.msg7367#msg7367
date=1530338204]
> ...
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: HenrysMom link ---
>
> ...
>
--- End Quote ---
...
And again, I'm more concerned about her behavior toward the man
filming. I can understand her being "put out" but the woman not
immediately complying with her request. But her response to the
man was completely out of line, as was her continuing to stand
there and argue with the passenger once the phone was in
airplane mode. The whole issue would have been resolved that
once she confirmed the phone was in airplane mode she just moved
on and not engaged. But she was bound and determined to stand
there and argue her point. The passenger couldn't disenage and
move on because she was seated. The only person who could have
de-escalated the issue was the FA. And it is that lack of
control that makes me believe that she would not be able to
perform her role in case of an emergency.
[/quote]
"deescalate" is a technique that all people in positions of
authority should be trained in and held responsible for. I often
wonder if people in authority are taught to deescalate and if,
after a situation, their actions are reviewed as something they
could learn from. E.g "what could you have done to deescalate
the situation?". "What if you had done (whatever), do you think
that would have helped deescalate?"
And yes, the people who are not in a position of authority could
deescalate too, I just tend to hold paid professionals to higher
standards than non-paid, non-professionals.
#Post#: 7394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Arguing with the Flight Attendant
DIR By: guest426
Date: June 30, 2018, 2:07 pm
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Passenger was dead wrong in this situation. Once the flight
crew (cabin crew or cockpit crew) tells you to do something, you
do it. Their order carries the weight of the law, and it's a
federal crime to disobey.
The fact that the flight attendant was standing there watching
the passenger obey is also the passenger's fault. If the
passenger had obeyed the general instructions, there would have
been no need for the flight attendant to specifically observe
the passenger's compliance.
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