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#Post#: 77316--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: oogyda Date: October 3, 2022, 11:12 am
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I've got a version of this going on in my head that is based on
assumptions and my interpretation of what you wrote.
I assume that the 4 of you participate in group e-mails.
I assume that Jo's scathing e-mails are sent only to you and are
not part of the group. (If she sends this sort of thing
criticizing you and neither of the others say anything, I think
it's time for you to leave the group and block communication.)
Unless you have asked the others if they have received similar
e-mails, I don't think you can assume you are the only ones who
get them. In fact, I would probably assume they are getting
them as well and are having many of the same feelings you are.
While I think this
"It seems our continued friendship causes you great stress and
anxiety by feeling the need to correct me on my actions. I think
it best we disengage. All the best to you and your family."
is somewhat passive/aggressive, I do think you should disengage
and follow Hmmm's advice with the other 2 women.
Remember not to JADE, because she seems exactly the type that
will make it seem like it's all your fault and want you to prove
yourself. That's what you're trying to get away from. I know
it's hard, and I know it feels heartless and mean, but that is
what people like her count on.
#Post#: 77317--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: Lkdrymom Date: October 3, 2022, 12:00 pm
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What exactly do YOU get out of this 'friendship'? How are you
connected to Jo's son that you are required to send him a
birthday card and how would she know you did or not? Are you
actually friends with her son? Does he send YOU a card on your
birthday?
I'd take a break from this woman. Maybe "apologize" for being
such a disappointment to her and tell her you are bowing out of
the friendship. You don't need this guilt. It is a flipping
birthday card.
#Post#: 77319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: jpcher Date: October 3, 2022, 2:21 pm
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ZekailleTasker -- What's wrong with you? You started this thread
three days ago and you have yet to reply to each.and.every post!
How uncaring can you be?
By the way, you haven't started any new threads about your job.
You know you should keep us all updated on your big creative
writing project. Not that we care about your long-winded tales,
but it would be nice to have something new to talk smack about
you.
AND! I noticed you didn't post a reply on my thread about my new
SIL's bday gift. Seriously? No thoughts, ideas or suggestions?
You really need to get your shit together. I expect to hear your
ideas today.
Love,
-- Jo
LOL? Maybe? I hope you get my meaning. If any of us actually
wrote and meant a response like the above to anybody's thread on
this board, we would be forever banned.
Polite, caring, friendly people do not talk to each other that
way.
I don't exactly know why your initial post hit me so hard. Maybe
because I've been in a few friend-abusive relationships. I know
it's difficult to give up a long-time relationship. But
sometimes it needs to be done in order to save your own peace of
mind.
AND! This is important, ZT . . . Please don't take my first
sentence to heart. There is no reason to respond at all. I've
often started threads just to get some feedback/thoughts/ideas
and never followed up with responses other than "thank you". The
first sentence was from "Jo" not me ;).
That's the wonderful thing about the friendship on this board,
and friendship in general. FRIENDS accept you. They don't berate
you.
I think this is really important:
[quote author=DaDancingPsych link=topic=2409.msg77298#msg77298
date=1664626232]
In order for me to allow other people's lives to take precedence
sometimes, I have to take care of me first. When I am in a place
where I feel that my best is accepted, THEN I can put others in
front of me.
[/quote]
#Post#: 77322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: TootsNYC Date: October 4, 2022, 10:08 am
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I want to give you permission to just blow her off.
And I want to give you permission to STOP SENDING BIRTHDAY CARDS
TO HER SON.
My god.
Just start responding with stuff like, "I don't do birthday
cards anymore. Give your son my apologies."
Listen, if "that's just the way I am" can work for assholes, we
ought to be able to make it work for us.
I moved from the Midwest to NYC after college. I had a friend
from college who would only whine at me any time that I called
her. Let's call her Deb.
I couldn't call often; I lived in a women's residence hall
and didn't have my own phone. I had to use a payphone and charge
calls to my parents' number, which was expen$ive! And awkward. I
could receive calls on the residence hall's antiquated
hall-phone system.
I was busy in a new city, making new friends, etc. And I had
become closer to the friend she'd introduced me to, so I called
that person a little more often.
And when I called that person, she'd tell me I should be sure to
call Deb, because otherwise Deb's feelings would be hurt that I
wasn't calling her too.
I finally called them both out on it.
I said to Deb, one of the times that I called and she
immediately started on the you-never-call, it's-been-so-long
stuff: "Look, every time I call, you just whine at me. It's
very unpleasant. It's not rewarding to call you--it doesn't make
me look forward to calling you. Sometimes I think about calling,
but I know I'll just get a guilt trip for the first 10 minutes,
and I decide I just don't want to deal with it. Frankly, it
pushes me away. If you want me to call you more often, you need
to make it an enjoyable experience, not whine at me for the
first 10 minutes.
"And you know what? The phone lines run both ways, and you
have a regular phone. It doesn't cost. you as much. You could
have called me at any time during the last three months. But you
didn't.
"Also: I am also friends with Denise, and I am not required
to call you every time I call her. We have separate friendships
now. I am truly sorry if that hurts your feelings, but I'm also
tired of apologizing for it."
And to the other friend, I said, "Listen, it's really offputting
when you guilt trip me on Deb's behalf. Just stop telling her
that you spoke to me. Or if you still want to, then you should
just not pass on her complaints to me. I know where she is, and
I'll call her sometime.
"To be honest, one reason I don't call her as much is that I
get five to ten minutes of guilt trip at the beginning. If I get
guilt trips from you every time I call, that's a really good
reason to not call as much.
"I now live in a different city, and our friendships are
going to change. Guilting me for that is completely unfair."
And I gave it one more phone call. And then I didn't call them
again. They knew where I was.
Eventually I reconnected, because I invited them to my
Midwestern wedding, and they came, and it was great. I've sort
of faded out on Deb, but Denise and I are still in touch (thank
you, Facebook, for making that easy) and visit one another if we
travel to the other's town.
I think you could say such a thing to Jan. "Every time you scold
me, it makes me not want to be in contact with you. I'm a
grownup, and I'm entitled to create the kinds of friendships
with other people that I want to. I am allowed to be someone who
isn't frequently in touch, or isn't a deep source of emotional
support. It's not for you to decide how I should behave."
I suppose you could even say, "You are not my mother."
But you don't have to. You can just roll your eyes at those
email and delete them without responding. I give you permission.
I also give you permission to start a different group chat that
doesn't have her in it.
#Post#: 77330--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: ZekailleTasker Date: October 5, 2022, 4:14 pm
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Hi, everyone--and Jpcher, I cracked up when I saw your spot on
imitation of Jo.
Let me see if I can address some of this quickly:
Amy and Beth, while they have never received emails taking them
to task for anything, get frustrated with Jo's need to "have all
her ducks in a row". I once sent her an email telling her she
didn't have ducks in a row. She had squirrels and they were
drunk. And yes, I stole that off the net. It may or may not
matter to folks, but Jo is German and she blames a lot of her
control freakishness on her German background. She's from a
part of the country noted for its rather militaristic
pride--which we once said explained so much. Beth, of all
people, got so fed up with her one day, she turned around,
clicked her heels and saluted with "that" salute. Jo backed off
and said "Well, I suppose I deserved that. I get bossy."
The four of us were originally equals and three of us NEVER
imagined we would EVER be friends with Jo because she was so
irritating and bossy when first hired. After knowing me about a
month, she once came at me with scissors. I had just got a new
haircut, an unintentional copy of "The Rachel" with the long
curved piece hanging near the jaw. "This is bothering me," she
announced, grabbing for the offending strand. I stepped back
and said "Then don't look at it. If you cut it, you owe me
$50."
Regards her son: Jo jr. is a very intelligent, funny and witty
(and very, very patient) young man whose mother claims he and I
must have somehow been separated at birth. Whenever the four of
us get together, I often end up sitting with Jo jr. to discuss
the latest happenings in the world of anime and manga, haunted
houses and other paranormal things, science fiction and so on.
If the five of us go somewhere, we usually need two cars, so Jo
jr. and I drive together so we can talk. In the past Jo jr.
(age 7) used to help me with bulletin boards (with his mother
saying "don't complain to me if he messes up!"--we were coloring
flowers at the time and he was much neater than I was.) At age
11, he used to come to my story telling programs (aimed at
adults and YAs). In his twenties, he would come over to take
care of my cat if I had to b away. When I tried to pay him for
that service, Jo insisted he return the money because he didn't
work that hard. We don't write or call each other because Jo
Jr., despite his wit and intelligence, is painfully shy and
doesn't really enjoy communicating much. Yes, he lives with his
mother still. No, he doesn't have a job. While Jo rages about
this, she has never actually let him be a child when he was a
child. Jo Jr. was given a choice of three programs each summer
and he had to choose one and stick with it. So one year he
maybe went to art camp for two months, next year maybe he worked
at a dude ranch and so on. He has a degree in literature, is a
very good writer (tho you wouldn't think so to listen to his
Mom) and is a gentle soul. His mother is lucky he is home as
she is closing in on 80 and has had so many joints replaced she
is probably bionic by now.
Regards me and Jo: Jo and I ran a library branch together for 7
years. She was my boss by virtue of having been a manager at a
prestigious library across the country. During that time she
complained constantly because I 'never did any book selection."
This is not true. I did a TON of book selection, but as I had
but 200 dollars to spend, my selection was limited. I would
hand my choices off to Jo--who would discard them and buy what
she thought we should have. Micromanage much? Similarly,
whenever there was a clean up/weeding project to be done, she
would apologize to me for not helping me (I was fine with it: I
could get done quicker on my own). Then, when my back was
turned, she would go over what I did and change it. I had to
ask permission for ANYTHING I wanted to try. Usually, she shot
me right down. Our director once asked me to describe our
working relationship. I said "I blow up balloons and Jo sticks
pins in them." And the director, who had had her own run ins
with Jo, responded, laughing, with "I should have expected
nothing less."
Why do I stay friends with her? When Jo is not being a
micromanaging control freak itch, she can be extremely funny,
generous and kind. When my mother passed away, Jo was one of
the first people to console me. When I needed an operation that
would keep me out of work for two months, it was Jo who put
together a cute bag of goodies so I wouldn't get bored. Jo
always has cards on hand for every flipping occasion you can
name and made it a point to celebrate her staff's birthdays.
(Drove her crazy that three of her staff were Witnesses.) And
because SHE keeps track of all the milestones in your life--on a
wall calendar, no less--, well, you should be able to do the
same, too.
Jo is indeed aware of her issues, but she is more aware of
others' issues.
After this latest email, I happened to speak with Amy (who is
finally cancer free: yay!) and she said she noticed I hadn't
written much in the last couple of days, so I told her the story
and read her one of the letters. I could hear her shaking her
head over the phone. "If she cannot be in control, she just
isn't happy. And she expects everyone to be just like her!"
Amy went on to say she was getting exhausted trying to come up
with something interesting to put in her emails because "I am
trapped in the house, in quarantine. WHAT does she think I am
doing that's so interesting?"
This might explain some of Jo's idiosyncracies. We all get fed
up, but I think, because I am the youngest (I'm two months
younger than Amy--who is 68) and because I was once her dogsbody
at the library, Jo still sees me as someone who needs to be
reined in. And because her son and I are friends, she also sees
me as a child who needs to be disciplined.
I try to ignore it, because Amy and Beth are important to me.
(The three of us live in the same town; Jo has moved about six
hundred miles away) We do get together now and then, leaving an
empty chair at the table for Jo. The four of us used to go on
long weekend antiquing trips that usually included a couple of
shows and museum visits as well. And I generally keep my mouth
shut.
In short, I am fond of the Jo who behaves like a sympathetic
friend when tragedy or triumph strikes. But the one who expects
the world to measure up to her standards of organization and
goodness? Not so much.
#Post#: 77332--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: TootsNYC Date: October 6, 2022, 9:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
maybe the thing to do is to work on enjoying the Jo you like,
and completely ignoring the one you don't like.
That's internal work you can do.
to be amused: "there she goes again!" and delete those emails
without reading more than what it takes to identify them.
or to route her emails into the trash, or a subfolder, and only
communicate with her in the chat, or whatever group setting you
have.
Sometimes, with good-hearted people, the other thing you can do
is have a heart-to-heart in which you bring up the problem and
then work out a code phrase that you can use whenever they cross
that line. But that only works if they genuinely want to deal
with the problem and are willing to react appropriate to the
code phrase.
#Post#: 77335--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: jpcher Date: October 6, 2022, 1:32 pm
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Thanks for the update, ZT.
I was especially interested in your description of your
relationship with Jo jr. I really like that the two of you are
close and have known each other since he was a child. That
explains a lot as to why Jo got on your back about the bday card
. . . but, still, she should not have done that.
I know we all were encouraging you to cut this woman out of your
life, but with your follow up description of your relationship
and her caring side changes my view.
I honestly think (and hope) that this can be worked out between
the two of you, with a good, friendly, heart-felt discussion.
I do like Toots' thoughts:
[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=2409.msg77332#msg77332
date=1665066275]
maybe the thing to do is to work on enjoying the Jo you like,
and completely ignoring the one you don't like.
That's internal work you can do.
(snip)
Sometimes, with good-hearted people, the other thing you can do
is have a heart-to-heart in which you bring up the problem and
then work out a code phrase that you can use whenever they cross
that line. But that only works if they genuinely want to deal
with the problem and are willing to react appropriate to the
code phrase.
[/quote]
First bold: Ignoring the bad, sweeping it under the rug as in
"She's just being Jo again ::)" can be a difficult thing to do,
especially after it builds up and internally explodes (like it
did in your current situation). So, this is not the best
band-aid, a fix-all, but it is a good step in the right
direction.
Add the second bold to the above and you have a good recipe for
the possibility of healthy relationship. Jo needs to be on board
and do some soul searching herself. I do like the idea of a code
word (A salute emoji? LOL!)
On the positive side, Jo does recognize her faults:
"Beth, of all people, got so fed up with her one day, she turned
around, clicked her heels and saluted with "that" salute. Jo
backed off and said "Well, I suppose I deserved that. I get
bossy."
Remember, it's not something that's going to change overnight,
but with a little work on both your parts, I'm betting on
positive results.
I'm sending you positive vibes . . . Good Luck!
#Post#: 77340--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: ZekailleTasker Date: October 7, 2022, 10:48 am
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UPDATE: Well, the card was received on, I think Wednesday,
along with the gift card I tucked inside. Another friend to
whom I mailed a card at the same time noted that she had
received hers, so I knew the other was received. NO WORD FROM
JO. Jo Jr., however, decided to send me a gift card to my
favorite local restaurant. This is both charming and appalling:
it's HIS birthday, he shouldn't be buying gifts.
This restaurant is known for its crazy sandwiches and salads,
but more to the point, it is known for its amazing, tasty and
huge chocolate chip cookies. And the gift card is just enough
$$ to pick up a one and a half dozen for my beloved, talented,
remarkable, if occasionally contentious, staff.
In the grand scheme of things, this doesn't amount to a hill of
beans. I mean, we have a war to worry about, a political divide
the size of the Pacific and a homeless problem that seems
unending...but right now I am grinning and feeling slightly smug
and slightly petty as I know I am currently living rent free in
Jo's head. Today is a pretty good day.
#Post#: 77342--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: Rain Date: October 7, 2022, 5:59 pm
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The stereotypical German woman argh
I had a German grandma ( who tried to rule our house and she did
not live with us). But she also had a heart of gold she took in
a woman whose husband beat her and helped her until she could
get a divorce back when divorce was looked down upon.
And a German stepmother in law who did the same.
I actually had a counselor who made a remark about German
mother-in-laws.
#Post#: 77357--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sometimes OTHER People's Lives Take Precedence to Yours
By: NFPwife Date: October 10, 2022, 11:42 am
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ZK, you have a great grasp of Jo and it's admirable that you're
willing to tolerate some of her rigidity to keep her as a
friend. I like the idea of letting her know when she's too much
so she can course correct.
You mention Jo's German, I wonder if that's why her son gave you
a gift on his birthday. We had a nun of German descent at our
parish for a while and she always gave gifts on her birthday,
she said it was "a German thing."
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