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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 76360--------------------------------------------------
"You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially if T
hey Aren't Jokes
By: Aleko Date: July 15, 2022, 8:53 am
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I find that when someone says something I find really offensive
or otherwise dislikeable, a handy tactic can be to pretend to
believe it was said in joke, and rebuke the sayer along the
lines of 'don't joke like that, what if someone took you
seriously?'
An example is the second letter in the Miss Manners column
today:
HTML https://www.uexpress.com/life/miss-manners/2022/07/15.
LW
asks for advice about 'a slightly older friend, a very dear and
loving woman, who often seems very anxious over a plethora of
small things, including anything in my life that she deems
worrying'. LW has just bought a house - a process in which she
says Friend has invested far too much curiosity and downright
worry - and now she is preparing to move, Friend 'has repeatedly
insisted I allow her to help me pack, unpack, lay shelf liner,
clean the bathroom and cook'. LW has her own children lined up
to provide all the help she needs, and actively doesn't want 'a
casual friend going through boxes of my personal items or
generally being underfoot', so has explicitly declined each
time. To which Friend's response 'is something like she "just
might have to help, whether I want her to or not."' Friend asks
'what I could do to let her feel helpful, as this is clearly so
important to her, without feeling like I have my mother hovering
over me or invading my personal space.'
My own feeling is that a person so hell-bent on invading someone
else's new home and interfering with their belongings is not
likely to be satisfied or distracted for very long by being
given some trifling, non-invasive task. I would suggest rocking
her right back on her heels, something like this: -
"Whoa, Sally! That's just not funny. You shouldn't make jokes
like that. Don't you realise that if I took you seriously - that
if I believed even for a moment that you could disrespect me and
my wishes in that way - I wouldn't ever feel comfortable leaving
you unsupervised in my home, even for a moment?"
This would leave her no choice but to agree that it had been a
joke, haha, that she would never dream of actually doing such a
thing, and hopefully would shut her up on the subject
altogether. (But I still wouldn't ever leave her unsupervised in
my home.)
Has anyone any other thoughts about dealing with this situation?
#Post#: 76362--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: lakey Date: July 15, 2022, 9:58 am
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I think your response is much better than what the original Miss
Manners LW suggests: "Friend asks 'what I could do to let her
feel helpful, as this is clearly so important to her, without
feeling like I have my mother hovering over me or invading my
personal space.'"
You don't want this woman to continue interfering. People like
that have trouble taking "no" for an answer. Your response is a
more clear "no", the original LW's idea of finding something for
the annoying woman to do, just encourages the annoying woman to
think that she should be interfering. And I do believe that when
someone is continuously offering you unsolicited advice and
concern about what you, an adult, are doing, that is
interfering. My response may seem a bit negative about the
friend who is trying to be helpful, but there is something
insulting about a slightly older friend always offering
unsolicited advice or concern. It's implying that the person
can't make adult decisions without help.
#Post#: 76363--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: sandisadie Date: July 15, 2022, 10:17 am
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Why couldn't this new homeowner say something like "it's
generous of you to offer your help but I've got everything
covered and when I'm finally settled I'll give you a call so we
can visit." Then if this interfering "friend" insists, the
homeowner will just have to say "I'm sorry, but I have all the
help I need right now. I'll get in touch with you soon." When
people try to run your life you just have to stand your ground
sometimes.
#Post#: 76373--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: Gellchom Date: July 15, 2022, 3:21 pm
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I think I would go with Sandisadie's approach rather than the
thing about the joke. I get the idea, but it's still not being
clear (politely, of course!). Sandisadie's wording will keep
the focus on not wanting help, not on something about not
trusting her friend, and will leave the friend feeling good.
#Post#: 76384--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: TootsNYC Date: July 16, 2022, 10:46 am
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I might say, with humor, "Thou shalt not covet thy friend's
moving experience."
Well, in real life, maybe not; I'd use sandisadie's. But i know
it wouldn't be enough.
So then I might say, "I have everything all set, and I really
prefer to handle this my own way. It's nice of you to be
worried, but please stop asking about this, it is stressing me
out. I appreciate that you want to help, but the best way you
can help is by dropping the topic and trusting that if I need
your help, you have made me comfortable about asking. I'm one of
those people who prefers to have control over how things get
done in my home."
I have used a version of this with people who want to help me
with clean-up in the kitchen when I'm hosting a dinner party.
#Post#: 76385--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: TootsNYC Date: July 16, 2022, 10:53 am
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I do think the letter writer should STOP worrying about making
this woman feel useful.
#Post#: 76388--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: VorFemme Date: July 16, 2022, 3:18 pm
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I did like MM's suggestion about leaving the subject (and
possibly the house, old or new) - I was thinking along the lines
"I just want to think about something besides MOVING - let's go
get coffee (or lunch) and talk for a while - I need a break
anyway!"
#Post#: 76411--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: Gellchom Date: July 18, 2022, 8:04 am
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[quote] I appreciate that you want to help, but the best way you
can help is by … trusting that if I need your help, you have
made me comfortable about asking. [/quote]
Toots, I’m going to memorize this. Perfect for all those people
who want to help when there’s really nothing for them to do, not
just those overdoing it like this woman. Gets the job done and
compliments them AND deepens the friendship.
I too like the suggestion of “just help me take a break!”
#Post#: 76810--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: Contrarian Date: August 15, 2022, 6:33 pm
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This won’t be a popular opinion, but I have had friends who
won’t take no for an answer. And friends who have wanted to
mother me. I don’t like it. And I won’t accommodate it.
I dislike the feeling of saying no twice. I dislike any tactics
that take up more time, such as distracting the person with “I
just need a break”, and having to spend an afternoon with
someone, not because we want to spend time together but in the
hopes that I will satisfy her need to control my life.
It is very “mother like” isn’t it? To not trust someone to pack
the way they think is right and to put things in the right
place?
It could be the relationship I had with my mother who would
criticize everything I did. That dresser is ugly, why did you
paint this colour, isn’t that picture frame cheap, always
followed with let me do it, let me be there, let me decide.
Why does this woman feel she “just might have to come and help
anyway?”.
I can’t imagine asking one “would you like me to help you cut
the cake?” And upon hearing no, just saying as I grab the knife
and push her away with my hip, well “I will just have to anyway.
It doesn’t after to me that this is your event. Your home. I’ll
just do this anyway. I must”
It’s intrusive. It’s soft intimidation. It’s “I will only feel
right if you do what I say.” “If you don’t let me you’re hurting
me and that’s on you.” Or, “If you don’t everyone will see how
you’re treating me.”
We have a right to our homes. I will indulge egos and
sensitivities at work and in the grocery store, and anywhere
else. I don’t care if people are rude and butt in line, or put
their items in the wrong part of the belt, or count change, it’s
not worth the fight.
I understand people at work need to be heard, and they need to
do things their way and I try my best to work with them in the
way they want, and listen to their stories and massage their
egos so we can all accomplish the task.
But in my home, that’s where I get to be me. I get to express
myself. I have paper books on shelves instead of everything on
my iPad, despite what people think. I have artwork I like placed
where I like. I’ve painted the walls the colours I’ve wanted,
and bought the furniture I like.
I don’t want someone else coming in and packing up my things and
telling me what should go where and how to do this and that.
I’ll take that anywhere but my home. And if someone hears me
say, no thank you, more than once and tells me they will have to
anyway, they will never be invited into my space again.
They clearly think it’s wrong. And they maybe right. But I
reserve the right to come to that conclusion in my own time or
not.
So this particular, mothering, condescending, controlling
behaviour. I just wouldn’t tolerate. And I haven’t. I have lost
good friends over this. And I’m ok with that.
#Post#: 76811--------------------------------------------------
Re: "You Shouldn't make Jokes Like That" - Especially
if They Aren't Jokes
By: Contrarian Date: August 15, 2022, 6:35 pm
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Sorry, Alecka, you were asking if the “should we pretend they
are joking” response is best.
I think maybe not for everyone. I get the concept and I think
it’s a fine one for certain personalities.
I think it matters more on your conversational tone in general.
I couldn’t get away with it but I bet many could.
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