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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 75948--------------------------------------------------
Here Fishy Fishy
By: Blue Willow Date: June 18, 2022, 4:54 pm
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Hi-! New to the forum and looking for some fresh perspective.
Here's the story:
Friend Gina moved out of town several years ago, and haven’t
been able to see her much since then, however she was going to
be visiting for a few hours so we planned to have lunch together
with mutual friend Olivia at a local cafe.
Due to pandemic restrictions, the cafe did not offer table
service as usual, but instead , orders were taken at a window
and then food was delivered to your outdoor table. Gina arrived
early. When Olivia and I arrived, Gina told us that she had
already stood in line and ordered the food and that it was her
treat, in honor of Olivia’s upcoming birthday (she would not let
me chip in any share, insisting it was entirely her treat). We
hadn’t discussed this ahead of time, but it is typical of
generous Gina, as well as an extra kindness to Olivia who has
mobility issues and would have been uncomfortable standing in
the long line. Gina had ordered a variety of soups, salads, and
breads. As the food started arriving at the table, she asked
Olivia and I “hostess” type questions-- were these choices okay,
who wanted which soup, “is this what you would have ordered?”
etc. Olivia’s answer to the last was “I was planning on having
the fish”. Olivia immediately jumped up and went to stand in
line again to order fish.
The line to order was still quite long, and we lost Gina for
close to twenty precious minutes while she waited in line. In
retrospect, I probably should have offered to stand in line
instead so that at least Gina and Olivia could chat with each
other (Olivia and I can see each other any time) , but honestly
I am not a quick thinker. In the meantime, the food that had
already been delivered just kind of sat there, as did Olivia and
I, waiting for Gina to come back.
We ended up with entirely too much food; Olivia ended up taking
home the majority of the excess.
I felt both dismayed and irritated at Olivia. If your hostess
(albeit your surprise hostess) has already provided you with an
adequate meal, it seems somewhat rude to mention what you might
rather be eating instead, implying that what is offered isn’t
good enough. Olivia just literally answered the question put to
her, without offering any reassurance that her needs would be
met otherwise. If she’d have said, “Well I usually order the
fish, but this all looks great, thanks, no need for anything
else, pass the bread and butter!” then okay, but she didn’t,
she let Gina go stand in line again while the soup got cold.
Olivia can visit that cafe any day of the week and get the fish
(avoiding the line by calling her order in), so it’s not like
this was her only chance.
However, I also realized later that if Gina didn’t want to do
this, she wouldn’t have. What’s it to me if she wants to
indulge Olivia for her birthday? It is not a huge burden to
wait a little longer to eat while she takes care of her friend.
Olivia didn’t demand fish, whine for fish, or pout because she
didn't have fish, she just said that she would have ordered
fish, and Gina acted on it. I also acknowledge that this
would not be happening if Gina and Oliva carried and used their
cell phones like normal people, (lol) --Gina could have called
from the line and asked us what Olivia wanted to eat, problem
solved, and we all get to use our time with Gina to the utmost.
So what do you think? Was it ungracious for Olivia not to have
accepted what had already been provided, even if her heart was
set on fish? Was my dismay and irritation misplaced or
unwarranted? Is the surprise aspect of Gina's hosting a factor?
Thanks for reading this long!
#Post#: 75949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: lakey Date: June 18, 2022, 6:01 pm
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Gina chose to get back in line to get Olivia's fish, but I also
think that Olivia should have stopped her. I probably wouldn't
have mentioned the fish, and I definitely would have said to
Gina, "No don't get in line again. This is fine. Let's just
chat."
#Post#: 75950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: sandisadie Date: June 18, 2022, 6:05 pm
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I think that Olivia shouldn't have said anything, except "thank
you". However, I'm not sure that Gina should have taken it
upon herself to order food for everyone without at least calling
you both to find out if you had input. It was really nice of
her to pay for the lunch though. Overall, I'd say that Olivia
was rude, especially as it was her birthday lunch. Perhaps Gina
felt ok with ordering because she already knew what foods you
both preferred. Or, thought she did, anyway.
#Post#: 75951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: Rose Red Date: June 18, 2022, 7:11 pm
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If I were Olivia, I wouldn't say anything. If I blurt it out
without thinking, I'd tell Gina there's enough good food and
fish is not needed.
If I were Gina, I might have said "Let's enjoy this food while
it's hot/fresh and then go back for fish."
However, it's easy to sit here behind our computers and think
about the situation. People say and act in heat of the moment
without time to think; they just act by instinct. But there was
20 minutes to think and Olivia should have called Gina back to
the meal.
#Post#: 75952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: OnyxBird Date: June 18, 2022, 7:17 pm
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It sounds like Gina had the best intentions and was being
generous, but I think your annoyance is directed at the wrong
friend. Gina tried to do something nice, but created a
foreseeable mess by unilaterally changing the plan. You and
Olivia came to an agreed-upon lunch at an agreed-upon place
where it sounds like you knew the setup, which implies to me
that you both were prepared to pay for your own food and handle
the ordering process including waiting in line. (I understand
Olivia has mobility problems, but she's presumably an adult who
knows her own body--if she agreed on lunch at a restaurant that
requires waiting in line, I assume she decided that was doable.)
Gina decided to implement a plan that would have been an
improvement/"treat" if everything went perfectly (i.e., she
correctly guessed what you and Olivia would want to eat), and
instead made lunch worse because something didn't go perfectly.
Presumably in the original plan, you all could have socialized
while waiting in line. But once Gina had ordered food to arrive
at around the time you and Olivia did, she effectively ensured
that there was no way to do that if ordering something
else--someone would have to stay at the table to "babysit" the
already-arrived food while someone else was in line (and
meanwhile the initial order is getting cold/warm). That was a
problem of Gina's creation, not Olivia's. Olivia's only "crime"
was to honestly answer one of Gina's multiple questions about
whether the food choices were OK, rather than lying and
indicating she was happy with the selection (which also might
encourage Gina to do this again in the future).
You're right that when being hosted, it's polite to accept what
is offered, even if it's not your favorite, but generally your
polite option for getting out of this is to decline the
invitation. Gina took away Olivia's opportunity to politely
decline her "hospitality" by springing this on you having
already ordered. It's also not like a gift, which is supposed to
be accepted with a "thank you" even if you dislike it--the
balance there is that you have no obligation to use or keep a
disliked gift, but lunch has to be eaten or not; there is no
option of politely setting it aside without the giver knowing
whether you use it or not.
So, sure, Olivia could have just accepted the meal that Gina
picked (and I might well have done so in her shoes), but I don't
think Olivia did anything wrong by honestly answering Gina's
question that, no, this was not what she wanted and would have
chosen for herself.
(Note: I admit that my perspective is biased by 1) being highly
uncomfortable with plans being changed without warning and 2)
having bad experiences with people assuming they know what I
want/what's best for me and acting on that without my input and
sometimes against my input, so I'm not kindly inclined towards
Gina's actions.)
#Post#: 75955--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: Rose Red Date: June 18, 2022, 9:37 pm
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I already posted but I want to add that another option was to
wait for everyone to arrive and then Gina can order and pay
(since she wanted to treat) while the other two wait at a table.
What if there was a traffic delay?
It sounds like Gina has a generous and eager to please
personality but the plan wasn't thought out properly. Maybe
Olivia already primed her tastebuds for fish. She may happily
eat the soup and salads but as an " addition" to the fish
instead of "instead of." But personally, I'd probably keep my
mouth shut and just thank Gina.
This reminds me of the cell phone thread. Situations like this
is why I'm pro-phone when going out or meeting up with people.
#Post#: 75970--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: Bada Date: June 19, 2022, 8:48 pm
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I had a similar situation recently. A last minute change in
plans meant my mom and brother came to our house instead of
eating out. We thawed salmon and chicken breast to serve them.
When my husband said what we'd be eating (after they arrived)
they both said chicken would be OK, but they liked the dark meat
better.
It was so frustrating to try to do something nice at the last
minute and have them crap on it like that.
Seriously, wsays stuff like "I was really hoping for something
different" to their host?! Ugh.
Olivia should have sucked it up this time and then made a big
fuss about pre ordering next time so it wouldn't happen again.
#Post#: 75972--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: Hmmm Date: June 20, 2022, 8:41 am
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[quote author=OnyxBird link=topic=2359.msg75952#msg75952
date=1655597839]
It sounds like Gina had the best intentions and was being
generous, but I think your annoyance is directed at the wrong
friend. Gina tried to do something nice, but created a
foreseeable mess by unilaterally changing the plan. You and
Olivia came to an agreed-upon lunch at an agreed-upon place
where it sounds like you knew the setup, which implies to me
that you both were prepared to pay for your own food and handle
the ordering process including waiting in line. (I understand
Olivia has mobility problems, but she's presumably an adult who
knows her own body--if she agreed on lunch at a restaurant that
requires waiting in line, I assume she decided that was doable.)
Gina decided to implement a plan that would have been an
improvement/"treat" if everything went perfectly (i.e., she
correctly guessed what you and Olivia would want to eat), and
instead made lunch worse because something didn't go perfectly.
Presumably in the original plan, you all could have socialized
while waiting in line. But once Gina had ordered food to arrive
at around the time you and Olivia did, she effectively ensured
that there was no way to do that if ordering something
else--someone would have to stay at the table to "babysit" the
already-arrived food while someone else was in line (and
meanwhile the initial order is getting cold/warm). That was a
problem of Gina's creation, not Olivia's. Olivia's only "crime"
was to honestly answer one of Gina's multiple questions about
whether the food choices were OK, rather than lying and
indicating she was happy with the selection (which also might
encourage Gina to do this again in the future).
You're right that when being hosted, it's polite to accept what
is offered, even if it's not your favorite, but generally your
polite option for getting out of this is to decline the
invitation. Gina took away Olivia's opportunity to politely
decline her "hospitality" by springing this on you having
already ordered. It's also not like a gift, which is supposed to
be accepted with a "thank you" even if you dislike it--the
balance there is that you have no obligation to use or keep a
disliked gift, but lunch has to be eaten or not; there is no
option of politely setting it aside without the giver knowing
whether you use it or not.
So, sure, Olivia could have just accepted the meal that Gina
picked (and I might well have done so in her shoes), but I don't
think Olivia did anything wrong by honestly answering Gina's
question that, no, this was not what she wanted and would have
chosen for herself.
(Note: I admit that my perspective is biased by 1) being highly
uncomfortable with plans being changed without warning and 2)
having bad experiences with people assuming they know what I
want/what's best for me and acting on that without my input and
sometimes against my input, so I'm not kindly inclined towards
Gina's actions.)
[/quote]
I think it is best to always try and graciously accept surprise
gifts or gestures. Presumably the primary goal was to visit with
each other while having a meal. It doesn't sound like the
primary reason for the visit to the restaurant was to allow
Olivia to eat a fish dish. Also, the OP says Olivia would have
been uncomfortable standing in a line, so the gesture also
resolved that issue for Olivia.
If Olivia has significant dietary restrictions, she should have
asked what was ordered when learning of the gift instead of
waiting till the food began to arrive. For instance, if she is
diabetic and everything was carb heavy she could have said "Oh,
thanks so much but I think I'll go place an order for the fish
since I need to stay away from bread and potato soup."
And it wouldn't be lying to soften her response of "I normally
order the fish so am happy to sample other items of the menu".
By accepting Gina's offer to go back and order the fish, she
took away a big part of the primary reason to be together.
Were I the OP and new the wait was going to be more than 5
minutes, I probably would have left the table and went to the
line and told Gina I would place the order and suggest she go
back and visit with Olivia.
Olivia was given a gift of 1) a free lunch 2) no need to stand
in line 3) more time to comfortably visit with friends 4) and
opportunity to try items on a menu at a restaurant she obviously
frequents. Instead, her rigidity in what she desired to eat
caused a problem for all 3. Her behavior seems self focused.
#Post#: 75995--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: lowspark Date: June 22, 2022, 7:39 am
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[quote author=Blue Willow link=topic=2359.msg75948#msg75948
date=1655589284]
As the food started arriving at the table, she asked Olivia and
I “hostess” type questions-- were these choices okay, who
wanted which soup, “is this what you would have ordered?” etc.
Olivia’s answer to the last was “I was planning on having the
fish”. Olivia immediately jumped up and went to stand in line
again to order fish.
[/quote]
If Gina did indeed ask this specific question, I don't think
Olivia was rude to answer it honestly. To me, it would have
seemed like normal conversation.
It seems like Gina was asking specifically so she could fill in
with whatever Olivia really wanted, although if I were Olivia, I
would not have been able to predict that.
Gina was really generous to do what she did, but then she went
overboard, and that turned out to be a negative thing.
It's like if you host a party and someone asks for something you
don't have, let's say mustard for example. Do you say, "Oh!!
Sorry, I'm out of mustard" and move on? Or do leave your guests
waiting while you hop in the car and rush off to the grocery
store to buy some?
When I host, I offer what I offer. Discussion of other food
doesn't change that. To be honest, I don't fault Olivia as much
as I fault Gina, although certainly her heart was in the right
place. But her decision to prioritize the food over the company
put a damper on the gathering.
#Post#: 75997--------------------------------------------------
Re: Here Fishy Fishy
By: Rose Red Date: June 22, 2022, 8:01 am
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Next time, Gina should say ahead of time that she's treating and
ask what the others want to order. Springing the surprise treat
can backfire like this since Olivia was probably startled and
just blurted out her answer.
At a dinner party,guests may not know what's going to be served
but the guests are prepared for that. In this situation, it came
as a surprise to the other two, so they wasn't prepared for an
unexpected food and payment situation.
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