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       #Post#: 75630--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: chigger Date: May 24, 2022, 12:36 pm
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       I'm feeling ill right now.
       #Post#: 75631--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: Rose Red Date: May 24, 2022, 1:11 pm
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       And they have two children under 6. That's a difficult job
       enough without 2 mothers demanding her attention.
       I don't blame her for going "shopping." And if she can't vacuum
       or do other chores while taking care of children, plus one or
       both mothers are taking up her time, when can she? In her sleep?
       #Post#: 75639--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: Hmmm Date: May 25, 2022, 8:38 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       So what I'm getting is that no one found D's action of leaving
       for 2 hours rude. That was my primary question.
       To address a few other comments:
       My sister has never brought up her concern about D not wanting
       her there to D or to my nephew. She doesn't "demand" attention.
       When she visits, she spends most of the time with the kids
       upstairs, even going to bed around 8 with them.
       Someone asked if D returned from her 2 hour errand and cooked
       dinner. No, D does not cook. My nephew does most of the cooking.
       Don't pity D. She grew up in a very tight family extended
       family. Their close ties to their family's is one thing that
       brought D & M together.  Her sister and cousins are her best
       friends and extended family gatherings at her grandmother's home
       was a weekly event. D loves having her family around. After the
       first summer of having a pool, M had to request she stop
       inviting her parents, siblings and cousins over every weekend
       because he was tired of cooking for a large group every weekend.
       Her mom is over engaged in their business. But like M tells her,
       if she didn't share so much, her mother wouldn't always be
       trying to give so much input.
       D has a job she loves and  travels frequently for both work and
       with her sister/cousin for long weekends. She does do school
       drop off in the mornings. Her father picks up the kids from
       school 3 days a week and takes care of them till she or M picks
       them up after work and M picks them up the other 2 days. If M is
       traveling for work, her Mom or her sister usually brings dinner
       by for he and the kids. I remember how much juggling it took to
       have a two career family and kids. But they have a great
       network. In 2019, D & M took 10 day vacation. We split taking
       care of the kids with my sister taking vacation time and staying
       with them during the week, the other grand parents took them
       over the weekends and I even took a day off from work to cover
       for the Monday of their return.
       #Post#: 75640--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: oogyda Date: May 25, 2022, 10:21 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Okay...I'll be a little blunt.
       It sounds like A may be jealous.  It sounds like D's family is
       much more involved in their lives and the children's lives.
       They are very much a part of the intricate juggling act that
       modern family's face.  Simple logistics and distance dictate the
       limited extent A can participate and she might be feeling like
       she's not as involved.  Rightly so.
       This isn't a fair playing field with A being further away, so
       she should stop with the comparisons and simply enjoy the family
       interactions.
       As far as being upset that D didn't hang around?????  She really
       didn't visit to see D, did she?
       #Post#: 75647--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: Hmmm Date: May 26, 2022, 8:20 am
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       [quote author=oogyda link=topic=2352.msg75640#msg75640
       date=1653492097]
       Okay...I'll be a little blunt.
       It sounds like A may be jealous.  It sounds like D's family is
       much more involved in their lives and the children's lives.
       They are very much a part of the intricate juggling act that
       modern family's face.  Simple logistics and distance dictate the
       limited extent A can participate and she might be feeling like
       she's not as involved.  Rightly so.
       This isn't a fair playing field with A being further away, so
       she should stop with the comparisons and simply enjoy the family
       interactions.
       As far as being upset that D didn't hang around?????  She really
       didn't visit to see D, did she?
       [/quote]
       Oh, that's not being blunt at all. A readily admits that she
       gets jealous that the other grandparents spend more time with
       the kids. She has a good relationship with D's family and they
       frequently include her in their family celebrations or they come
       over to visit her when she is in town. But I don't think that
       coloring how she feels about D's lack of engagement. I think she
       would find it odd or hurtful if she arrived to visit me and my
       husband left to run errands soon after she arrived.
       A would like to have a closer relationship with M so yes part of
       her visiting is wanting to visit with D too.
       I told A I didn't think it was wrong of D to leave upon her
       arrival. But I wanted the groups opinion. I thought others might
       also find it rude to leave so soon after a guest arrives, even
       if it is your MIL who is staying for a couple of days.
       #Post#: 75649--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: sms Date: May 26, 2022, 9:51 am
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       I don't think it's necessarily rude to do errands or take a
       break from socializing especially with close family that visit
       for a few days.  Stuff still has to get done after all and
       people still get tired.  Especially with socializing.
       But something is definitely wrong if your sister is feeling
       unwelcome.  You know your sister and we don't,  if she isn't the
       hypersensitive type who feels slighted easily then maybe D is
       being kinda rude.
       There seemed to be a narrative forming that D was a beleaguered,
       put upon wife and mother with a really overbearing mother in law
       but that doesn't seem to be the case.
       And to be fair to your sister it's hurtful if it's made obvious
       how much closer and more welcome D's family is.  Agreed that
       it's logistics to a point but it's not nice to feel that someone
       is avoiding you or makes you feel like you're intruding.
       Especially if the welcome wagon is rolled out for everyone else.
       No, D shouldn't be expected to spend every waking moment engaged
       with A.  But D might be mindful of making sure A isn't getting
       all the dregs.
       #Post#: 75671--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: Hmmm Date: May 27, 2022, 8:23 am
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       [quote author=Rose Red link=topic=2352.msg75631#msg75631
       date=1653415860]
       And they have two children under 6. That's a difficult job
       enough without 2 mothers demanding her attention.
       I don't blame her for going "shopping." And if she can't vacuum
       or do other chores while taking care of children, plus one or
       both mothers are taking up her time, when can she? In her sleep?
       [/quote]
       This tickled me this morning. D doesn't do housework. I mean
       she'll wash cloths and empty the dishwasher some of the time.
       For most of the pandemic, they both worked from home and they
       hired a nanny/housekeeper to help out while they worked. Nephew
       said that once the kids were back in daycare/school, he had to
       hire a weekly house cleaner because he couldn't keep up anymore
       with work, kids activities and his volunteer activities.  D
       happily admits she hasn't cleaned a bathtub or a toilet since
       her college years.
       #Post#: 75672--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: lakey Date: May 27, 2022, 10:18 am
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       [quote]There seemed to be a narrative forming that D was a
       beleaguered, put upon wife and mother with a really overbearing
       mother in law but that doesn't seem to be the case.  [/quote]
       I think it's more likely that these are simply two people with
       completely different personality types. I have a sister who is
       an extrovert who loves to socialize. I am an introvert who loves
       to be left alone. Our visits go best when they are of limited
       duration. For my sister and I, 3 days and two nights is too
       much. Two days and one night is doable. Laying blame on one
       party for being overbearing, or on the other party for being
       unfriendly, isn't going to make things better. I think it would
       be more constructive to accept reality and have shorter visits
       so that the people don't get on each others nerves so much.
       #Post#: 75674--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: Aleko Date: May 27, 2022, 10:37 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote]Don't pity D. She grew up in a very tight family extended
       family. Their close ties to their family's is one thing that
       brought D & M together.  Her sister and cousins are her best
       friends and extended family gatherings at her grandmother's home
       was a weekly event. D loves having her family around. After the
       first summer of having a pool, M had to request she stop
       inviting her parents, siblings and cousins over every weekend
       because he was tired of cooking for a large group every weekend.
       Her mom is over engaged in their business. But like M tells her,
       if she didn't share so much, her mother wouldn't always be
       trying to give so much input.[/quote]
       On that basis I still do pity D. When somebody has grown up in
       such a completely enmeshed family with a massively controlling
       parent, it's really not justifiable to say that they love it and
       are staying closely-meshed within it of their own free will:
       because it's the only way they know how to be, and they may not
       feel entitled to break loose from it. It's perfectly possible
       that she feels 100% obligated to invite the whole mob over every
       weekend, and would feel disloyal if she didn't tell her mother
       everything. (As for 'Her sister and cousins are her best
       friends': does she even have any close friends outside her
       family? When would she get to hang out with them if she had?)
       There's no telling why she isn't throwing herself into intimacy
       with A. Maybe because although M is now a member of her own
       family by adoption, A is not, and she just doesn't know how to
       be on intimate terms with anyone who stays outside that magic
       circle? Maybe because when she doesn't feel that compulsive
       family togetherness, she has no impulse to socialise at all?
       Maybe she finds something daunting or offputting about A?
       Whatever the reason, nobody can force another person to like
       them, and making emotional or social demands on them that they
       don't spontaneously want to offer only ever makes matters worse.
       I think A should just chill about the whole thing, stop checking
       D's behaviour for 'rudeness', be kind and friendly without
       pushing for more than D has to give, and see if things warm up
       over time.
       #Post#: 75683--------------------------------------------------
       Re: In Law Interactions
       By: Hmmm Date: May 27, 2022, 4:26 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Aleko link=topic=2352.msg75674#msg75674
       date=1653665837]
       [quote]Don't pity D. She grew up in a very tight family extended
       family. Their close ties to their family's is one thing that
       brought D & M together.  Her sister and cousins are her best
       friends and extended family gatherings at her grandmother's home
       was a weekly event. D loves having her family around. After the
       first summer of having a pool, M had to request she stop
       inviting her parents, siblings and cousins over every weekend
       because he was tired of cooking for a large group every weekend.
       Her mom is over engaged in their business. But like M tells her,
       if she didn't share so much, her mother wouldn't always be
       trying to give so much input.[/quote]
       On that basis I still do pity D. When somebody has grown up in
       such a completely enmeshed family with a massively controlling
       parent, it's really not justifiable to say that they love it and
       are staying closely-meshed within it of their own free will:
       because it's the only way they know how to be, and they may not
       feel entitled to break loose from it. It's perfectly possible
       that she feels 100% obligated to invite the whole mob over every
       weekend, and would feel disloyal if she didn't tell her mother
       everything. (As for 'Her sister and cousins are her best
       friends': does she even have any close friends outside her
       family? When would she get to hang out with them if she had?)
       There's no telling why she isn't throwing herself into intimacy
       with A. Maybe because although M is now a member of her own
       family by adoption, A is not, and she just doesn't know how to
       be on intimate terms with anyone who stays outside that magic
       circle? Maybe because when she doesn't feel that compulsive
       family togetherness, she has no impulse to socialise at all?
       Maybe she finds something daunting or offputting about A?
       Whatever the reason, nobody can force another person to like
       them, and making emotional or social demands on them that they
       don't spontaneously want to offer only ever makes matters worse.
       I think A should just chill about the whole thing, stop checking
       D's behaviour for 'rudeness', be kind and friendly without
       pushing for more than D has to give, and see if things warm up
       over time.
       [/quote]
       But you are pitying her based on you would feel about growing up
       in such a close family. I can empathize with how difficult it
       can be to have such a controlling mother but I don't feel pity
       for her. She grew up in a home with two very loving parents who
       wanted the best for her, two siblings with whom she is very
       close, extended family that she loves and trusts, and had
       parents who financially supported her through college and now go
       out of there way to try and help out as much as they can.  But
       your use of the word could be semantically different than mine.
       I think of pitying someone as a more negative like the below
       description.
       [quote]Pity means feeling for others, particularly feelings of
       sadness or sorrow. In a positive sense it means "sympathy" and
       "empathy". More commonly Pity is a negative judgement of others
       and their situation. An example of pity is how most people feel
       about the homeless.[/quote]
       I don't know a ton of her friends but I do know of two women she
       is very close with and they and their husbands are part of M &
       D's social circle. They are often in attendance at the "family"
       get togethers at M & Ds. One was around so much prior to their
       marriage that I thought she was another of D's cousins. She also
       often mentions a couple of women she works with she seems close
       to.
       As I was thinking about the word "pity" I also thought about
       "controlling" vs "intrusive". When D was younger, yes I think
       her mom was controlling. Since her parents were paying for the
       wedding, D's mom exerted a lot more control than I would have
       been willing to relinquish. But D wanted the great bit wedding
       without her and M going into debt. D is now financially
       independent and has a super supportive husband who is willing to
       tell his MIL to butt out when he decides he's tired of hearing
       her opinions. But D does recognize that her parent's do a lot of
       things for her so does try to be considerate of their feelings.
       I think the controlling mother is now more "opinionated &
       intrusive". She'll give her opinion often and frequently but D &
       M ignore it when they want.
       At times, I have more empathy for M always being surrounded by
       so many inlaws. But he knew that D wanted to raise her family in
       much the same manner as she was raised with her kids spending a
       lot of time with grandparents and cousins. He was just as
       excited about buying the "entertaining" house with the pool,
       outdoor kitchen, and garage converted to a game room. And they
       put in a big jungle gym in a sectioned area so the little ones
       have a safe place to play. Our family was spread out so he
       really didn't have the "cousins" experience and all but one of
       his grandparents were deceased by the time he was 5. He's close
       to my two kids but they are 12 & 14 years younger than him. He
       does speak up when it's something important. For example, one
       year he decided he wanted to host Xmas Eve with just his side of
       the family. All previous years, it was always celebrated at D's
       grandmother's house. D seemed very happy to comply.
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