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#Post#: 65665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: chigger Date: April 16, 2021, 5:37 pm
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[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=2032.msg65664#msg65664
date=1618610812]
[quote author=chigger link=topic=2032.msg65662#msg65662
date=1618608034]
Yes, that was the whole point of "Ms.", but it sure as heck did
not solve the problem, back in the day! It was yet another
label.
[/quote]
Exactly -- because people refused to use it, insisting that it
was just for business. But it's much more commonly used today,
and when it is, it does indeed solve the problem.
That problem, anyway -- there is still the marking of sex (not
to mention the lack of convention for honorifics for nonbinary
people). What would you think would be a good all-purpose
honorific that doesn't announce either marital status or sex?
We have lots of specialized ones already -- Dr., Prof., Sgt.,
Sen., Rev., etc. -- and people manage with those just fine.
Seems like there should be something all-purpose for everyone
else. Have you seen (or have you used) the gender-neutral
"Mx."? Do you think that it will come into common usage? Do
you have a better idea?
[/quote]
Honestly, I don't see the need for honorifics, unless they are
earned, like the examples you provided. Doctor, Prof., Sargent,
etc. Is this something we need anymore? Do we really need an
honorific just for being? We have our names. That's good enough
for me! I don't need to be Mrs. Smith, but if I earned a medical
degree, yes, I'd want to be addressed as "Doctor". The same with
any rank I'd earned, Military or otherwise. I don't think any of
us need to be addressed as Ms. Mrs. Mr. Miss or Mx. We have our
names! I don't (and would not ) be upset if someone just called
be my name! Call me Chigger, call me Smith, does it really
matter?
ETA: What I mean is, it would not bother me one bit if I was not
called by an honorific, although I know it would bother many
others. I personally think it's probably time to give these
tired things a rest.
#Post#: 65668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: Starry Diadem Date: April 17, 2021, 5:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=chigger link=topic=2032.msg65665#msg65665
date=1618612637]
Honestly, I don't see the need for honorifics, unless they are
earned, like the examples you provided. Doctor, Prof., Sargent,
etc. Is this something we need anymore? Do we really need an
honorific just for being? We have our names. That's good enough
for me! I don't need to be Mrs. Smith, but if I earned a medical
degree, yes, I'd want to be addressed as "Doctor". The same with
any rank I'd earned, Military or otherwise. I don't think any of
us need to be addressed as Ms. Mrs. Mr. Miss or Mx. We have our
names! I don't (and would not ) be upset if someone just called
be my name! Call me Chigger, call me Smith, does it really
matter?
ETA: What I mean is, it would not bother me one bit if I was not
called by an honorific, although I know it would bother many
others. I personally think it's probably time to give these
tired things a rest.
[/quote]
I can only say "Amen!". I mentioned on another thread that
having been brought up in the Society of Friends where
honorifics are not used, my natural default is to announce
myself everywhere and sign everything as Starry Diadem, with no
honorific. Those official forms that insist upon an honorific, I
use Ms.
#Post#: 65669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: Aleko Date: April 17, 2021, 5:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Traditional English is wonderfully inconsistent in what words
are gender-neutral and which have masculine and feminine forms.
It distinguishes between waiter and waitress, and manager and
manageress, although they have precisely the same function. But
we’ve never had doctress - even though a doctor’s sex can often
be relevant to their job - or teacheress. It was for a long time
argued that the distinction between actor and actress was
necessary, as when casting a play you generally know whether you
need a male or a female in a given role; but nobody has ever
been able to explain how, if that’s the case, the producers of
opera and musicals have always managed to get along without
distinguishing between a singer and a singeress.
Getting back to the topic: I personally am less happy than
chigger to be addressed by my given name by total strangers.
(And I dislike it - and them - very much indeed if they take it
on themselves to use a pet-form of it.) I believe in respect,
both the giving and the getting of it, and also in degrees of
intimacy; if total strangers can behave as though they were your
best mate, what special privileges are left to be shared between
best mates? A decent, pronounceable, unisex honorific, like -san
in Japanese, would suit me just fine. (Yes, I know that the
Japanese have a whole slew of other honorifics with all sorts of
niceties of usage to complicate their lives; but -san itself is
simple.)
#Post#: 65670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: Rose Red Date: April 17, 2021, 6:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Starry Diadem link=topic=2032.msg65668#msg65668
date=1618655372]
[quote author=chigger link=topic=2032.msg65665#msg65665
date=1618612637]
Honestly, I don't see the need for honorifics, unless they are
earned, like the examples you provided. Doctor, Prof., Sargent,
etc. Is this something we need anymore? Do we really need an
honorific just for being? We have our names. That's good enough
for me! I don't need to be Mrs. Smith, but if I earned a medical
degree, yes, I'd want to be addressed as "Doctor". The same with
any rank I'd earned, Military or otherwise. I don't think any of
us need to be addressed as Ms. Mrs. Mr. Miss or Mx. We have our
names! I don't (and would not ) be upset if someone just called
be my name! Call me Chigger, call me Smith, does it really
matter?
ETA: What I mean is, it would not bother me one bit if I was not
called by an honorific, although I know it would bother many
others. I personally think it's probably time to give these
tired things a rest.
[/quote]
I can only say "Amen!". I mentioned on another thread that
having been brought up in the Society of Friends where
honorifics are not used, my natural default is to announce
myself everywhere and sign everything as Starry Diadem, with no
honorific. Those official forms that insist upon an honorific, I
use Ms.
[/quote]
I've rarely been addressed by Mrs/Miss/Ms. Strangers trying to
get my attention call out ma'am. My workplace is casual and we
all call each other by our first names, except for one person
who wants to be called "Miss Sarah."
But if we get rid of those titles, what would children call
their teachers or other adults? Teacher Williams may work.
What about lawyers? First or last names seems a bit too casual
in court. Lawyer Jones?
#Post#: 65671--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: Gellchom Date: April 17, 2021, 6:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
-san is a perfect example. That would be great.
I’m not big on honorifics or titles, either, but sometimes
they’re kind of necessary when speaking directly to someone in a
formal setting or to a stranger. As Aleko points out, first
names alone aren’t always appropriate, ditto last names alone,
and although I would (and have) start a letter “Dear Jane Doe,”
it would sound pretty strange to address someone by their full
name in conversation, especially to keep saying it over and over
in the same conversation.
My children went to a school where the teachers were called (I’m
translating) not “Teacher Williams” but “Teacher Judy.” I loved
that. And I loved that Teacher was a title of respect.
In many languages and regions, children call adults, and adults
call older adults, “Mr. Richard,” “Dona Luisa,” etc. I.e., an
honorific with a first name. Respectful but intimate. When
people ask me what they want their young children to call me,
because the first name seems too disrespectful but Ms. Doe seems
too formal, I often suggest that “Miss Jane” form. (I don’t care
what the kids call me, but it is often important to the parents,
and they really seem to like this.)
#Post#: 65683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: chigger Date: April 17, 2021, 3:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=2032.msg65671#msg65671
date=1618658327]
-san is a perfect example. That would be great.
I’m not big on honorifics or titles, either, but sometimes
they’re kind of necessary when speaking directly to someone in a
formal setting or to a stranger. As Aleko points out, first
names alone aren’t always appropriate, ditto last names alone,
and although I would (and have) start a letter “Dear Jane Doe,”
it would sound pretty strange to address someone by their full
name in conversation, especially to keep saying it over and over
in the same conversation.
My children went to a school where the teachers were called (I’m
translating) not “Teacher Williams” but “Teacher Judy.” I loved
that. And I loved that Teacher was a title of respect.
In many languages and regions, children call adults, and adults
call older adults, “Mr. Richard,” “Dona Luisa,” etc. I.e., an
honorific with a first name. Respectful but intimate. When
people ask me what they want their young children to call me,
because the first name seems too disrespectful but Ms. Doe seems
too formal, I often suggest that “Miss Jane” form. (I don’t care
what the kids call me, but it is often important to the parents,
and they really seem to like this.)
[/quote]
#Post#: 65684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: chigger Date: April 17, 2021, 3:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=chigger link=topic=2032.msg65683#msg65683
date=1618690157]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=2032.msg65671#msg65671
date=1618658327]
-san is a perfect example. That would be great.
I’m not big on honorifics or titles, either, but sometimes
they’re kind of necessary when speaking directly to someone in a
formal setting or to a stranger. As Aleko points out, first
names alone aren’t always appropriate, ditto last names alone,
and although I would (and have) start a letter “Dear Jane Doe,”
it would sound pretty strange to address someone by their full
name in conversation, especially to keep saying it over and over
in the same conversation.
My children went to a school where the teachers were called (I’m
translating) not “Teacher Williams” but “Teacher Judy.” I loved
that. And I loved that Teacher was a title of respect.
I'm from the South, and yes it's very, very common to say Miss
Chigger or Mr. Joe. It's always been a sign of respect for
someone you're close to, but not old enough to call by the given
name. You pretty much never become old enough to call them by
their given name! Oddly, You very seldom hear "Mrs. Firstname".
The Miss is often pronounced as Ms.
In many languages and regions, children call adults, and adults
call older adults, “Mr. Richard,” “Dona Luisa,” etc. I.e., an
honorific with a first name. Respectful but intimate. When
people ask me what they want their young children to call me,
because the first name seems too disrespectful but Ms. Doe seems
too formal, I often suggest that “Miss Jane” form. (I don’t care
what the kids call me, but it is often important to the parents,
and they really seem to like this.)
[/quote]
[/quote]
Had to edit, because my post was in the middle of your, sorry!
#Post#: 65733--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: Oz Diva Date: April 19, 2021, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In Australia it would have to be very formal indeed for anything
other than her forename to be used. I can’t remember the last
letter I received addressing me as Ms Surname. And anything that
was I wouldn’t read because it’s most likely trying to sell me
something.
#Post#: 67680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: holly firestorm Date: June 25, 2021, 10:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Aleko link=topic=2032.msg65503#msg65503
date=1618318566]
[quote]Some people of all ages who know perfectly well that my
last name is not the same as my husband's and use it for me use
"Mrs." with it anyway, as though it's somehow more polite or
complimentary or something. It doesn't offend or anger me, it
just makes me sad.[/quote]
But it could simply be that they know you are married, and take
it for granted that a married woman is a Mrs, without any value
judgement attached at all?
[/quote]
If she's not using her husband's last name, it may not be a
value judgment. But, it's certainly stating that they are not
paying attention or that they don't care.
I would agree with Chigger, honorifics, except things like Dr.
etc, are really passe and, yes, even sexist. It's like you need
to know whether the person is male or female to decide how to
deal with them in a business context. Very retro...but, not in a
good way.
This is not the 20th century any more. The title Ms. has been in
use at least since the 1970's. It's become the common default in
virtually all business correspondence I've seen in the past 20
years.
#Post#: 67695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mrs., Miss or Ms.?
By: peony Date: June 27, 2021, 8:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
When I was teaching (college level, necessary to know because
adult context) I called myself Ms. Lastname. Some of my students
called me Mrs. or Miss Firstname, which was fine. One student
even called me by my last name only, but his home country wasn't
the US and I figured it might be customary in his country of
origin so I didn't mind it. I do think, however, that sometimes
the honorific is desirable. I would have minded very much if a
student had called me by my first name, because that would have
lost me a certain level of authority and emotional distance that
I wanted to maintain as a teacher. (I know many teachers don't
mind, but I would have.)
One sometimes wants a bit of psychological or social distance
between one's self and others. For instance, I want my friends
to call me by my first name of course, but if a stranger does it
upon meeting me for the first time, it's off-putting with the
immediate assumption of familiarity that I may not feel like
reciprocating. And I think honorifics serve that function
too--giving people a bit of psychological space and polite
distance so they can evaluate the situation and see whether they
would like to be more informal going forward. In other words,
I'd err on the side of the honorific unless told differently.
For the record, Ms. really does the job, and I hope it becomes
default everrywhere.
This thread also has me thinking of the honorific Esquire, and
how men used it way back in the day. From what I understand, it
was considered a minimum sort of title, as it were, if a man
didn't have any other honorific to add to his name.
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