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#Post#: 64032--------------------------------------------------
We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: TootsNYC Date: February 27, 2021, 1:53 pm
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Tl;dr My daughter was given a gift card by the co-op president
for helping to shovel for the building. Three of us--my husband
especially, my daughter, and me--are sort of insulted and upset
about this, instinctively. We’re trying to figure out why.
I thought it would be an interesting thing to share and to get
some other perspectives on. And to spark some conversation.
I’m going to break this into a few posts so it’s easier to read.
Here are some background facts.
Chores on behalf of the building are common among tenant/owners.
*We live in a 10-unit self-managed co-op (sort of like a cross
between an HOA and a condo); each apartment has a seat (and a
vote) on the board of directors.
Each unit also has a set responsibilities for taking care
of things in our building. Our apartment is in charge of all
things electrical and the lobby; someone else is in charge of
all the tasks having to do with the laundry and the basement;
someone else (the board president) has the heating and plumbing,
someone has the garden, someone has the locks, someone else has
the super/porter and all cleaning tasks, etc. (These are in
addition to the tasks that come with holding an
officer--treasurer, president, secretary, etc.)
The building is probably a 50-50 split in terms of singles
vs couples/families. In our case my husband and I have taken
turns being the building director, and we share the tasks that
are assigned to us; my husband has the official responsibility,
but I am often the one getting the light bulbs, etc.
The building hires most things out when it comes to trades,
with the relevant director supervising and being proactive about
getting things taken care of.
Our building has a flat roof, and it’s old and we are a little
worried about the strength of the underlying beams. We are going
to be redoing the roof soon for $$$, but until then, we worry
about the weight of snow on the roof. So when there’s a
snowfall, we watch the accumulation and all the tenants who are
available and able will go up and shovel it off. We’ve hired it
out in the past, but most of the time, those of us who can just
do it themselves. In the past that often included the board
president’s husband and teenage son, and always it was my
husband and sometimes me, as well as a few other people--about 4
or 5 each time. There are a few residents who never participate,
but that never bothered us, because they weren’t really able.
And we usually had enough people.
Our daughter is 26, and she lives at home still. She doesn’t pay
rent and doesn’t really have chores. So when it was time to
shovel the roof, her dad (DH) let her know that we would be
needing her help on the shoveling team. She was perfectly
willing to pitch in. I think we’ve shovelled twice this year.
(My son is 22, lives here, and was recruited to help once I
think as well)
OK, that’s the background.
Here’s the etiquette situation.
The board president sent my husband an email saying, “We are
going to get your DD a gift card to say thank you for helping to
shovel the roof. It was so nice of her to help out.” (I’m
guessing this is coming from the building’s funds; she has the
authority to spend up to $1,000 at a time without getting a
vote, and I know she didn’t bring it to the board, so it’s all
her).
My husband was instantly angry. I was affronted, and my daughter
was insulted and affronted as well. And we are trying to see if
we can articulate why.
Then the gift card came in the mail--it’s for $100. Which made
things weirder--it wasn’t “have a cup of coffee at Starbucks on
us.”
So....that's the background, and the basic situation. I'll post
other thoughts in individual comments.
#Post#: 64033--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: TootsNYC Date: February 27, 2021, 1:58 pm
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Some background regarding the co-op, the board, and the
president:
I have always been a little weirded out when the president
thanks tenant-owners for doing things for the building--it’s OUR
building as much as it is anyone else’s; we ARE the building. It
bothers me for the thanks to be officially from the board to the
board members, because that’s like thanking yourself. It sort of
makes me feel that I've been temporarily "ejected" from my
membership in the building.
I’m OK w/ individual people thanking me for taking care of
stuff or expressing appreciation for effort; I often do that to
others: “You did a great job on the patio; thanks for
spearheading that; I appreciate that you take care of X task,
because I’d not have done as good a job/ hated doing it…” The
kind of thanks you give to a colleague--more appreciation than
deep gratitude.
I’ll also add that I often have had an urge to say to the
board president, when she gets effusive in her thankings, "I
didn’t do it for you. I didn’t even really do it for the other
tenant/owners. I did it because it needed to be done, and I did
it for me. And I don’t need people to gush over my having done
it.”
I’ll also say that for years I have felt that the president
treats the building as though it is hers. She *does* do the bulk
of the work, having been president for 35 years (I’m not alone
in thinking that she likes the power trip; and you have probably
heard me complain about her saying she would “host” a board
meeting in the building basement) so of course a sense of
ownership would develop. And a dynamic has developed that a lot
of people just sit there and let her run things, because it’s
easier on a lot of levels. So it’s kind of a normal attitude;
plus she IS the official voice of the building, often.
We don’t really like her, and while I’m sure that has affected
the depth of my husband’s reaction, I think we’d have the same
etiquette reaction no matter what.
#Post#: 64034--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: TootsNYC Date: February 27, 2021, 2:02 pm
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Here are some ideas I've come up with that might explain why
we're reacting like this:
Grace was called upon to shovel because of her membership in our
family; her dad gave her this task. It was an internal family
matter. For an outsider to come and pay her for doing her family
chores is intrusive, even if they did benefit from them. There's
no way n hell the board would give a thank-you gift to my
husband or me, so they have no business giving one to my
daughter, who is there as an extension of us, her family.
Grace is as much a member of this building as all the other
people up there shoveling; giving her a cash thank-you serves to
drive home the point that she’s not.
Grace shoveled out of goodwill toward the building and the other
residents; to pay her for that goodwill cheapens it and turns
her into….oh, what’s the word for a non-sexual prostitute?
Someone who accepts money for their favors, for that which
should be given for nobler reasons.
I have always found it mildly insulting to be offered cash
for helping someone; I think it’s rude to do that, to treat a
person doing a good deed as if they are suddenly involved in an
act of commerce.
There’s a very seminal story for me of being 5yo and visiting
“my little old lady” on the block, and helping her with putting
her groceries away, and she paid me 5 cents, and I was insulted
and hurt--I hadn’t helped her for money, I did it because I
loved her! It took all the good feeling out of it, and I still,
55 years later, remember how awful it felt when she insisted on
giving me that nickel. I was really troubled; I suddenly felt
selfish, because I hadn't had a good way to decline it. I took
the problem to my mom, who explained that sometimes you make
people feel good by letting you give me things. And that's OK to
me within that relationship, but it's not OK in others, to me.
I’ve seen that concept change in my own lifetime--I know I
heard comments from my parents or grandpa when I was a kid about
how they didn’t need people to offer to pay them because they
helped--and now I see comments from people who are insulted that
they weren’t offered money for helping someone at the roadside.
#Post#: 64035--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: Isisnin Date: February 27, 2021, 3:15 pm
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In New England, it was/is common for neighbors to show
appreciation to neighbors who snow-blow by giving the
"snow-blowers" a token of appreciation. It used to be homemade
baked goods. Now it's mostly gift cards. I know one neighbor
gives another $25 once or twice a year for snow blowing. It's
not an exact tit-for-tat.
But we don't give for snow shoveling (that I know of). My guess
is that it is because snow-blowers cost money to purchase and
maintain.
However, this instance isn't quite the same thing. You describe
a unit obligation thing rather than an obligation each person
has. Maybe the president has does this for others? Do you know?
Is the president's discretionary spending publicly accounted
for?. Maybe there was a technically-not-a-tenant/owner in the
past and she didn't give them a gift card and the president was
criticized? $100 is a lot though.
I wouldn't take it as an insult though. Maybe she was worried
about etiquette and erred on the side of caution. It's awkward
though. A simple just-chipping-in-as-all-do became a "Thank you
soo much for doing that! Thank you!". Making too big a deal out
of something simple.
Since your daughter is not comfortable with the card, she could
return it with a note saying "Thank you, but as a member of this
community, I am happy to help along with everyone." kinda makes
it clear that she is no different rom anyone else in the
building. And keeps this from mushrooming larger.
#Post#: 64036--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: GardenGal Date: February 27, 2021, 3:31 pm
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I think your discomfort comes from feeling that the board
president is acting like nobility - dispensing treats to the
peasants (your daughter). Your daughter, acting as part of your
family unit, did a task to benefit the entire building. As
such, it should be expected that any tenant able to help with
snow removal on a vulnerable roof would do exactly what your
daughter did as a matter of course. For the president to give
her a gift card of significant value is wrong and an abuse of
her power to spend building funds. Would the president do the
same for every person who helped? Of course not!
I agree with Isisnin - Since your daughter is not comfortable
with the card, she could return it with a note saying "Thank
you, but as a member of this community, I am happy to help along
with everyone." kinda makes it clear that she is no different
from anyone else in the building. And keeps this from
mushrooming larger.
#Post#: 64037--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: TootsNYC Date: February 27, 2021, 4:43 pm
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[quote]However, this instance isn't quite the same thing. You
describe a unit obligation thing rather than an obligation each
person has. Maybe the president has does this for others? Do you
know? Is the president's discretionary spending publicly
accounted for?. Maybe there was a
technically-not-a-tenant/owner in the past and she didn't give
them a gift card and the president was criticized? $100 is a lot
though.
[/quote]
I am pretty certain that she did not give this to anyone else.
The only non-tenant/owner who has ever helped in the past was
her son (and her daughter, I'm remembering now, when they were
in high school--our kids have helped in previous years as well).
I have no idea what she did for him, but I'm pretty sure I never
heard any mention of a gift card.
Her co-op spending can probably be seen, but it's really not an
issue to me that she decided to give something to someone on
behalf of the building. If she'd given that money to the super
because the snowstorm had made shoveling so very much harder,
I'd have been totally fine with it. It really is about the
idea that she gave it to my daughter.
#Post#: 64038--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: OnyxBird Date: February 27, 2021, 6:05 pm
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I think a gift card for $100 is excessive for someone who is
pitching in because they live in the building, and I can
certainly see why you and your daughter might feel that it
implies she's an outsider rather than a building resident
pitching in alongside everyone else. However, I think your
reactions to other aspects of the situation, like being thanked
for doing things for the building and being insulted by being
given cash in exchange for a favor, are far from universal (and
come across as a bit extreme to me) and probably coloring your
view of this situation.
In my experience, thanking someone for doing something that
benefits the thanker or the collective is absolutely normal and
polite even if it's part of the thankee's "job" and even more so
if it's not officially their responsibility. It can go overboard
and some people can do it in a way that's off-putting, but I
don't see it as inherently implying "ownership" in any way. I
certainly both give and receive thanks at work for stuff that is
quite literally part of the person's job. My boss forwards me
useful information? "Thank you!" An admin does an administrative
task so I don't have to? "Thank you!" Someone does work on my
project? "Thank you!" Often for stuff that's done "for" me, but
sometimes not. I have definitely thanked people who took on a
task for a group I'm part of, meaning that it won't end up on my
plate. Or someone who did something for the group (not
specifically for me) and did it in a way that was particularly
helpful. It doesn't mean I'm in charge; it just means that it
was helpful and I'm happy and grateful that they did it.
I get the aversion to receiving money for something you intended
as a favor, but I also know that it's important to some
favor-recipients to express their appreciation concretely in
some way, and IME sometimes that comes out as money (especially
when it's an adult dealing with a child or much younger person,
like your example with the nickel). A while ago (pre-COVID), an
elderly former neighbor asked for a ride and help to do some
holiday shopping--I was thrilled to do it as a favor and a
chance to spend part of the day with someone who was like a
grandmother to me. She had stated up front that she would treat
me to lunch, and that was more than enough "payment" for me. But
when I dropped her off...she asked me if $X was "enough." Of
course I told her that I didn't need money for helping her and
I'd been happy to spend the day with her, etc. We "argued" over
it briefly, but in the end she insisted on leaving some money in
my car when she got out and I didn't fight her on it because it
was, and always has been, important to her to not feel like a
"burden" on her neighbors and this obviously helps with that. I
would have preferred for her not to feel compelled to "pay" me,
but it certainly didn't ruin the day or make me feel like a
"non-sexual prostitute."
Like I said, I agree that the gift card in this case is a bit
weird, especially due to the relatively high amount. But also,
from what you said, shoveling snow isn't part of your family's
official responsibilities for the building, and you said it's
usually 4-5 people, and it sounds like your family has
consistently contributed 1-3 people (your husband "always" and
sometimes you and one of your children). That sounds to me like
your family overall has been contributing more than your share
of "shovel the roof" work, so that may be what the board
president is trying to clumsily recognize with this gift card.
#Post#: 64041--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: STiG Date: February 27, 2021, 9:49 pm
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I can see giving your daughter a token of appreciation if she
doesn't generally pitch in on the chores despite being a member
of the co-op. They have no way of knowing your chore
distribution within your unit or with your unit tasks. The roof
sounds like it is outside anyone's tasks. I wouldn't be
uncomfortable were someone to give me a gift card as thanks for
doing something extra. I would, however, be really
uncomfortable with the amount. A $10 to $25 GC to Starbucks
would be fine; $100 is more than a little much.
#Post#: 64045--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: AnnNottingham Date: February 28, 2021, 7:20 am
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I am reminded of the thread about husbands and wives thanking
one another for doing things around the house. Yes, it's my
house too, and something needed done, but I appreciate my
husband thanking me just the same. Maybe it's the same dynamic
at your place-the president knows that things have to be done,
and you're all pitching in, but still wants to express
gratitude.
With that said, $100 is far too much and I agree with your
daughter politely sending it back.
I think your dislike of this president is coloring your
response, along with issues with receiving money for doing a
favor or a good deed. Do you feel like it's the president's
building and you're all peons working for her? And maybe
frustration that no one has stood up to her for 35 years? She
sounds like the kind who has run things since kindergarten. In
our condo complex, this is avoided because we have term limits
(my cat jumped on my keyboard and I can't delete this)
#Post#: 64046--------------------------------------------------
Re: We are trying to figure out why we are a little affronted
By: AnnNottingham Date: February 28, 2021, 7:31 am
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I think your dislike for this president and issues around
receiving money for favors or good deeds is coloring your
response.
Do you think it could be that it's more like the president's
building than your (the tenants') building, and you're all peons
working for her? That's the vibe I get. I sense resentment and
frustration that she's essentially been queen for 35 years, and
no one has run against her or stood up to her to avoid a
confrontation? Do you have elections, or did she just become
president by default? In our condo complex, we avoid Queen or
King-isms by having term limits for offices.
I was reminded of a situation I occasionally have at work. A
customer will try to give me a tip (I'm a checker). I always
refuse; I don't want that dynamic or any sense of favoritism.
If it happens, I always hold my empty hands up to the camera :).
I liken my job to a front desk clerk at a hotel, who doesn't
receive a tip. The redcap who takes my bags upstairs would get
a tip. Interestingly, it's always the older customers who try
to do that, just like your "little old lady".
All that said, I agree that your daughter should send it back
with "thanks but no thanks".
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