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#Post#: 63613--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: kglory Date: February 14, 2021, 1:32 pm
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[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1978.msg63299#msg63299
date=1612302675]
I've been thinking about this and wondering why they didn't
introduce them as "former first lady Michelle Obama" and "former
first lady Laura Bush"
I guess because those aren't actual titles and more
descriptions?
[/quote]
It sounds like because they didn't introduce anyone by a former
title. Once a president, you've earned the title President X
for life. The same is not true of First Lady.
I also think it sounds like a well-planned sign of unity between
the parties that Laura Bush and Michelle Obama were introduced
in the same manner. If one were Mrs. and one Ms., or one Mrs.
Myname and one Mrs. Husbandsname, can you imagine how the papers
would run with that? So it sounds very consciously planned.
--
The "Second Gentleman" thing has been bugging me since the title
was announced, and it's because: Who is the First Gentleman?
First Lady is the President's wife and Second Lady is the
Vice-President's wife. This makes sense since they have
historically both been ladies. One first, the next second.
But now, wouldn't the president's wife be First Lady and the
VP's wife be First (Husband, Gentleman, Dude) as each is the
first of their gender?
Or is the First Gentleman technically the president, so the VP's
husband is the Second?
The more my head starts to go down these lines, the more I
realize all the old-fashioned and stereotyped thinking in this
type of terminology (first and second ranking of people,
gendered terms, finding a male term equivalent to a lady,
courtesy titles based only on marital status, etc.)
#Post#: 63617--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: kglory Date: February 14, 2021, 3:34 pm
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Writing the previous post made a light bulb in my head go off
about my discomfort with the term "Second Gentleman", and that
it all traces back to "First Lady" (such a standard title I
never thought to question before).
First Lady, often thought of as "first lady of the land",
implies that she is the woman of superior standing to all women
in the country.
But is she really? Is a female spouse of a president a higher
"lady of the land" than a female VP, Senator, Representative,
Supreme Court Justice, or governor? Aren't those people elected
/ politically appointed and thus have a higher standing than
someone who merely married the famous guy?
I feel like calling the president's wife "First" harkens back to
a time when being wife of the famous guy was the only way for a
woman to achieve social standing and any political influence.
As an avid hobbyist of the Colonial/early American era, spurred
by Hamilton :) , this is certainly true. All the president's
and other top political officials' spouses were formidable women
in their own right and they took that role seriously and they
did a lot for the nation, mostly behind the scenes. In fact,
most people can name no other famous women of that era (except
maybe Betsy Ross, who sewed a flag), unless they were married to
or related to some famous man.
But times have changed and women now can hold power in their
right. So a First Lady is not really the First Female, she is
the First Wife. The First Spouse.
---
Hence my discomfort with "Second Gentleman". He is the second
spouse, yes. But he's either the First Gentleman, because Jill
Biden is first lady and the next in line is a male so he is the
first of the gentleman; or he is "Second Gentleman" because the
President is first; but then this illustrates more blatantly the
problem with the ranking I was describing above.
Is our ranking of top men in this country really: 1) Joe Biden,
2) Doug Emhoff, 3) all nationally elected male positions? That
would be ludicrous. But that's what it implies.
#Post#: 63620--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: OnyxBird Date: February 14, 2021, 4:51 pm
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I'm not sure it's so much of an implied ranking, i.e.,
purporting to indicate "worth" in some way, as our society being
unwilling to accept the fact that the spouse of the
highest-ranking politicians of our country are inherently
nothing more than people who happen to be married to politicians
we hear about. So they feel the need to label that spouse
somehow, as if it's an official position. Despite the fact that
if that spouse had been intended to hold an official title, one
would have been specified when these roles were laid out in the
Constitution. But, of course, adapting similar existing titles
to create, e.g., "(Vice-)President Consort," would be too much
like playing monarchy. ::) So we go with "First Lady/Gentlemen"
which is pseudo-neutral because we're all equally "ladies" and
"gentlemen" and pretend we're not trying to give them a
pseudo-nobility title-by-marriage.
Personally, I've always hated the "First Lady" thing. If the
spouse (or someone else selected by the President) is taking on
actual duties (e.g., social duties related to the White House,
etc.) then by all means I'm on board with giving them an
appropriate courtesy title for that role in contexts where it is
relevant (e.g., "Presidential/White House Host(ess)"? I don't
know. Someone should be able to come up with something decent.),
but when they're being referred to as just the spouse of the
(vice) president, then why can't we just say "(Vice) President's
spouse" or call them by their names? If the spouses are actually
important enough that we need to talk about them, then surely we
can manage to learn what their names are, right? We only change
them up every 4-8 years, after all.
#Post#: 63635--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Aleko Date: February 15, 2021, 1:41 pm
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[quote]I'm not sure it's so much of an implied ranking, i.e.,
purporting to indicate "worth" in some way, as our society being
unwilling to accept the fact that the spouse of the
highest-ranking politicians of our country are inherently
nothing more than people who happen to be married to politicians
we hear about. So they feel the need to label that spouse
somehow, as if it's an official position. Despite the fact that
if that spouse had been intended to hold an official title, one
would have been specified when these roles were laid out in the
Constitution. But, of course, adapting similar existing titles
to create, e.g., "(Vice-)President Consort," would be too much
like playing monarchy. ::) So we go with "First Lady/Gentlemen"
which is pseudo-neutral because we're all equally "ladies" and
"gentlemen" and pretend we're not trying to give them a
pseudo-nobility title-by-marriage.
Personally, I've always hated the "First Lady" thing. If the
spouse (or someone else selected by the President) is taking on
actual duties (e.g., social duties related to the White House,
etc.) then by all means I'm on board with giving them an
appropriate courtesy title for that role in contexts where it is
relevant (e.g., "Presidential/White House Host(ess)"? I don't
know. Someone should be able to come up with something decent.),
but when they're being referred to as just the spouse of the
(vice) president, then why can't we just say "(Vice) President's
spouse" or call them by their names? If the spouses are actually
important enough that we need to talk about them, then surely we
can manage to learn what their names are, right? We only change
them up every 4-8 years, after all.[/quote]
Yes, I'm sure that when the Presidency was created, people were
so used to the concept of the King's wife being the Queen, that
they felt that the President's wife had to have some special
equivalent status; but it's just not a parallel situation. Not
only is a Queen Consort consecrated in her status, she has a
very important constitutional duty - viz. the conceiving and
bearing of the heir to the throne. And historically she has
quite often been the Regent for her child, if he succeeds during
his minority. The POTUS's wife doesn't have to do anything apart
from being a gracious hostess, and she has no constitutional
responsibilities whatsoever..
#Post#: 63657--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: February 16, 2021, 9:12 am
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[quote]The POTUS's wife doesn't have to do anything apart from
being a gracious hostess, and she has no constitutional
responsibilities whatsoever..[/quote]
I remember when Melania Trump stayed in NYC, and people I knew
who were really upset with the election results were extending
their frustrations everywhere they could. They would say things
like, "she needs to do her job."
I would always point out: there is no such job. The spouse
of the president has only one responsibility, and that is to be
a wife/husband to their spouse. Anything they might do beyond
that, including serving as the hostess at any state dinners,
etc., is a gift to the nation. Any salary they might receive or
staff they might pay is not actually their responsibility or
right or requirement to spent; it is an extension of the
president's operating budget.
We've had unmarried presidents whose siblings handled the social
duties related to his job, and they were referred to as "first
lady."
The "first lady" really is about a social ranking, not at all a
political one. And the wife of the head of the country is
absolutely first in social rank, whenever that comes to matter.
I don't think it's so horrible that we've used that term up
until now.
[quote]If the spouses are actually important enough that we need
to talk about them, then surely we can manage to learn what
their names are, right? We only change them up every 4-8 years,
after all.[/quote]
We've always known what the spouse's name is. "First lady" gets
used when a writer or broadcaster wants to make special note of
her identity or her status/role. Or when they think it's getting
boring to repeat her first name.
#Post#: 63658--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: February 16, 2021, 9:15 am
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[quote]Yes, I'm sure that when the Presidency was created,
people were so used to the concept of the King's wife being the
Queen, that they felt that the President's wife had to have some
special equivalent status[/quote]
FYI:
the term "first lady"
[quote]meaning ": the wife or female partner of the chief
executive of a country or jurisdiction"
[/quote]
predates the United States.
First Known Use of First Lady
1677, in the meaning defined at sense 1
#Post#: 63663--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Aleko Date: February 16, 2021, 12:15 pm
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[quote]FYI:
the term "first lady"
Quote
[quote]meaning ": the wife or female partner of the chief
executive of a country or jurisdiction"
predates the United States.[/quote]
First Known Use of First Lady
1677, in the meaning defined at sense 1[/quote]
That's not quite true.
You don't say where you got that definition, but it appears to
be a rather garbled excerpt from the OED's entry on the phrase.
But sense 1 in the OED is 'The most important or prominent
woman; (with of) the leading woman in a particular activity or
profession.' And the 1677 citation is from the English
translation of a French book, Histoire du gouvernement de Venise
by Amelot de la Houssaye: it says "If a Duke [i.e. Doge] be
married at the time of his Election, at his own peril, no
Revenue is allowed for his Wife, she is only treated as the
first Lady, but not as Princess. (In the original French, "la
première Gentil-donne de l'Etat)". But this is not actually a
title; in fact it is the opposite. In previous centuries the
Doge's wife had had the title 'Dogaressa', had been crowned
along with her husband, and had a major public and civic role.
But by 1677 the title and the coronation (and public funding for
her household and retinue) had been abolished, and all she got
was seniority in the order of precedence; no lady had the right
to walk in a procession, or in to dinner, ahead of her.
Basically, the reformation meant 'you're nobody, except insofar
as you're married to the head of state'.
The OED's first citation for the sense "the wife or female
partner of the chief executive of a country or jurisdiction"
isn't till 1870! The Detroit Free Press said "In the matter of
social etiquette the ladies of Washington have never been able
to agree... We know who is first lady, and we know who is second
lady—the wives of the President and Vice President have
unquestionably these distinctions." But even here it's clear
these are not titles, as such, but positions in the pecking
order. (In diplomatic circles precedence is still extremely
important; it's a dreadful gaffe for an ambassador to greet the
second highest-ranking lady present before the highest-ranking.
And that's clearly what the Detroit Free Press means here.)
#Post#: 63664--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: February 16, 2021, 1:11 pm
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I relied on Merriam-Webster.
But you underline my point, actually--these are not titles; they
are simply an indication of someone's importance in an
unofficial social ranking. A description. So it seems to me the
same thing, actually.
As a consequence, I think "second gentleman" is OK, because in a
SOCIAL construct, a male president is the "first gentleman" (a
female president, the "first lady") and then when you are only
looking at social rank, the husband of the VP would be the
second gentleman.
These are social descriptions, not titles, and not any
indication of power.
The Associated Press does not capitalize the term "first lady."
If you rely on the OED citation for the U.S., note that it would
indicate that this use of the term "first lady" comes well after
the establishment of the Constitution (written in 1787).
#Post#: 63713--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Aleko Date: February 18, 2021, 4:29 am
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[quote]these are not titles; they are simply an indication of
someone's importance in an unofficial social ranking.[\quote]
There was absolutely nothing ‘unofficial’ about it. Governments
and embassies worldwide had, and still have, whole departments
of protocol droids whose job is to work out who precedes who and
who should be seated where, and keep their boss correctly
briefed on it, so that nobody is given offence.
#Post#: 63724--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: February 18, 2021, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
that's still unofficial. Real, but not official
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