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#Post#: 63029--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: nuku Date: January 25, 2021, 5:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg63023#msg63023
date=1611609904]
I keep coming back to why we use any of these words (Mr., Mrs.,
Ms.), especially in today's world of gender fluidity becoming
mainstream. Why can't we just use someone's actual name? I did
take my husband's name, but I use my maiden name professionally
and cannot think of the last time someone called me "Ms." or
"Mrs." anything in real life.
I also am not a fan of people using the terms "Dr." or "Rev." or
"Judge" outside the context of their job.
[/quote]
Interesting. I agree about the titles except "Rev." You could
argue that's a vocation rather than a profession, & one is
always "on the job." (I'm thinking of my own religious
upbringing, where priests, nuns, & monks are always addressed as
Father, Sister, or Brother.)
I'd be interested to hear what a reverend has to say.
#Post#: 63034--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Gellchom Date: January 26, 2021, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1978.msg63020#msg63020
date=1611609628]
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1978.msg63008#msg63008
date=1611601657]
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1978.msg62812#msg62812
date=1611162440]
I think it's changed for the better. I have my own name and am
my own person, and wouldn't like to be called Mrs. John Smith.
My name is not John.
If we get a letter, I prefer it addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John
and Jane Smith. Women didn't fight long and hard for rights to
still be thought of as an extension of their husbands.
YMMV
[/quote]
When you think about it, if you use the title 'Mrs.' you still
are and extension of your husband. Once upon a time "Master"
was used for young, unmarried males and "Mister" for grown,
married males. But, now we only use "Mister" (except in TV shows
like Gotham when you want to show how old school the
butler/guardian is). Yet, many women still cling to the old
school "Miss" and "Mrs." If you are changing your title just
because you are married -- and your husband isn't -- you are
still being addressed as an extension of your husband. You
could even say that about changing your name when you get
married. A lot of couples both change their last names now and a
lot of women keep their maiden names.
[/quote]
I believe it's a woman's right to go by her father's name, her
husband's name, hyphenated name, or a made up name. I also
believe it's her right to use Miss, Ms, or Mrs.
There are examples in this thread that some women feel it's
right to use Mrs. Steve Miller (for example). Others like using
Mrs. but want the identity of their own first name. Others like
using Ms. Nobody is wrong. I think it's wonderful that women in
many parts of the world have choices nowadays.
[/quote]
I certainly agree. As I said, I am happy to use whatever choice
anyone makes.
My point was only about the use of different honorifics for
married and single women -- but not men -- and especially the
apparent feeling that it is disrespectful NOT to call a married
woman "Mrs." in some form, because it perpetuates the societal
insistence upon hanging a woman's value on her marital status.
Even the idea of "choice," though, can be deceptive. Men don't
have those choices ... or is it that they don't HAVE to choose,
but women are forced to make a choice, and that choice sends a
message, whether she wants to or not? "Mr." reveals nothing;
"Mrs.," "Miss," and "Ms." all do (unfortunately; that was the
point of Ms.) I am reminded of an article I once read about how
women cannot escape being "marked" by their appearance choices:
wear or don't wear makeup/dresses/heels/prints etc. - there is
no neutral look that says nothing about her; she can choose what
she will signal, but there's no choice that signals nothing.
Not so for men: a man in a suit and tie, khakis and polo, T
shirt and jeans, and many other choices are not "marked"
somehow. We can both celebrate having lots of options and
realize that it comes at a cost.
Jem (as usual) makes an excellent point: with recognition of
gender fluidity, and for that matter even without that, why do
we even have sex-specific honorifics at all? I do sometimes see
"Mx.," but I think its uncertain pronunciation makes it unlikely
to become common use. I am sure that there are some languages
that don't use sex-specific honorifics. In the Soviet Union,
everyone was just "Comrade," right? And in English, honorifics
like "Dr." and "Prof." and many others don't specify, and those
people seem to get along fine. So it's certainly doable.
#Post#: 63041--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Jem Date: January 26, 2021, 8:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=nuku link=topic=1978.msg63029#msg63029
date=1611618874]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg63023#msg63023
date=1611609904]
I keep coming back to why we use any of these words (Mr., Mrs.,
Ms.), especially in today's world of gender fluidity becoming
mainstream. Why can't we just use someone's actual name? I did
take my husband's name, but I use my maiden name professionally
and cannot think of the last time someone called me "Ms." or
"Mrs." anything in real life.
I also am not a fan of people using the terms "Dr." or "Rev." or
"Judge" outside the context of their job.
[/quote]
Interesting. I agree about the titles except "Rev." You could
argue that's a vocation rather than a profession, & one is
always "on the job." (I'm thinking of my own religious
upbringing, where priests, nuns, & monks are always addressed as
Father, Sister, or Brother.)
I'd be interested to hear what a reverend has to say.
[/quote]
I am the daughter of a reverend and married to one and they both
don't use the Rev. outside of work. I am sure others do, but at
least in the eyes of my husband, that is somewhat eyerolly.
That said, I think in the Catholic church (we are all Lutheran)
where priests and nuns cannot marry or have children it is
different. Being a priest or a nun likely IS their identity? I
don't know, but being an ordained pastor is PART of who my
husband is but is really only just one facet. He is also a
husband, father, musician, athlete, etc. It would be weird to
refer to the drummer of a rock band (like he is) as "And on the
drums....Rev. Jem's Husband!!!!"
#Post#: 63058--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Hmmm Date: January 26, 2021, 1:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg63023#msg63023
date=1611609904]
I keep coming back to why we use any of these words (Mr., Mrs.,
Ms.), especially in today's world of gender fluidity becoming
mainstream. Why can't we just use someone's actual name? I did
take my husband's name, but I use my maiden name professionally
and cannot think of the last time someone called me "Ms." or
"Mrs." anything in real life.
I also am not a fan of people using the terms "Dr." or "Rev." or
"Judge" outside the context of their job.
[/quote]
Do you mean in just social context, so dropping it when
introducing someone or sending an invitation?
Because I do not know how we would completing drop forms of
address. What would you instruct your children to call their
teachers or other adults? Or are you also for getting rid of
that type of formality?
I do wish there was more gender neutral forms of address so that
when I am writing a letter to someone and i don't know their
gender, I had a generic Dear Human instead of using Dear Sir or
Madam.
For my personal life, I do prefer having a gender specific
address. While gender fluidity is becoming more mainstream in
acceptance, I just don't see those identifying as gender fluid
becoming such a critical mass that it would drive a complete
drop of gender specific forms of address.
I've had a few conversations with my adult offspring about
gender neutrality. They find my preference for liking to
recognize that my husband and I are of different genders or
referring to them as my daughter and son as "quaint" and a
little out dated in thinking. I'm fine with their position. I
won't criticize them for preferring universal gender neutrality
if they don't try to push me to drop my preferences. However, if
one of them came to me and said they no longer wanted to be
referred to as a son or daughter and wanted to be referred to as
offspring, then I would use that form of address.
#Post#: 63062--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Jem Date: January 26, 2021, 3:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1978.msg63058#msg63058
date=1611690112]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg63023#msg63023
date=1611609904]
I keep coming back to why we use any of these words (Mr., Mrs.,
Ms.), especially in today's world of gender fluidity becoming
mainstream. Why can't we just use someone's actual name? I did
take my husband's name, but I use my maiden name professionally
and cannot think of the last time someone called me "Ms." or
"Mrs." anything in real life.
I also am not a fan of people using the terms "Dr." or "Rev." or
"Judge" outside the context of their job.
[/quote]
Do you mean in just social context, so dropping it when
introducing someone or sending an invitation?
Because I do not know how we would completing drop forms of
address. What would you instruct your children to call their
teachers or other adults? Or are you also for getting rid of
that type of formality?
I do wish there was more gender neutral forms of address so that
when I am writing a letter to someone and i don't know their
gender, I had a generic Dear Human instead of using Dear Sir or
Madam.
For my personal life, I do prefer having a gender specific
address. While gender fluidity is becoming more mainstream in
acceptance, I just don't see those identifying as gender fluid
becoming such a critical mass that it would drive a complete
drop of gender specific forms of address.
I've had a few conversations with my adult offspring about
gender neutrality. They find my preference for liking to
recognize that my husband and I are of different genders or
referring to them as my daughter and son as "quaint" and a
little out dated in thinking. I'm fine with their position. I
won't criticize them for preferring universal gender neutrality
if they don't try to push me to drop my preferences. However, if
one of them came to me and said they no longer wanted to be
referred to as a son or daughter and wanted to be referred to as
offspring, then I would use that form of address.
[/quote]
I hadn't considered children - you are right that using Mr. or
Mrs. Teacher would make sense there.
But in the context of adults, I just don't think we need the
Mr., Mrs., Ms. etc. In a social setting, it would be super weird
for someone to introduce my husband and me as Rev. and Mrs.
Hislastname, Esq. They might say "This is Jim and Jem - he's a
pastor and she is a lawyer," but it just seems really strange to
introduce people as Mr. and Mrs. Lastname instead of "This is
Bill and Sue - they live in Nearby City."
And in correspondence, I would prefer to just be addressed as
"Jem Maidenname" for work or "Jem Marriedname" for personal.
When I address business letters I use Robert Jones or Sally
Smith instead of Mr. Jones or Ms. Smith or Mr. Robert Jones or
Mrs. Sally Smith.
#Post#: 63067--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Hmmm Date: January 26, 2021, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg63062#msg63062
date=1611694978]
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1978.msg63058#msg63058
date=1611690112]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg63023#msg63023
date=1611609904]
I keep coming back to why we use any of these words (Mr., Mrs.,
Ms.), especially in today's world of gender fluidity becoming
mainstream. Why can't we just use someone's actual name? I did
take my husband's name, but I use my maiden name professionally
and cannot think of the last time someone called me "Ms." or
"Mrs." anything in real life.
I also am not a fan of people using the terms "Dr." or "Rev." or
"Judge" outside the context of their job.
[/quote]
Do you mean in just social context, so dropping it when
introducing someone or sending an invitation?
Because I do not know how we would completing drop forms of
address. What would you instruct your children to call their
teachers or other adults? Or are you also for getting rid of
that type of formality?
I do wish there was more gender neutral forms of address so that
when I am writing a letter to someone and i don't know their
gender, I had a generic Dear Human instead of using Dear Sir or
Madam.
For my personal life, I do prefer having a gender specific
address. While gender fluidity is becoming more mainstream in
acceptance, I just don't see those identifying as gender fluid
becoming such a critical mass that it would drive a complete
drop of gender specific forms of address.
I've had a few conversations with my adult offspring about
gender neutrality. They find my preference for liking to
recognize that my husband and I are of different genders or
referring to them as my daughter and son as "quaint" and a
little out dated in thinking. I'm fine with their position. I
won't criticize them for preferring universal gender neutrality
if they don't try to push me to drop my preferences. However, if
one of them came to me and said they no longer wanted to be
referred to as a son or daughter and wanted to be referred to as
offspring, then I would use that form of address.
[/quote]
I hadn't considered children - you are right that using Mr. or
Mrs. Teacher would make sense there.
But in the context of adults, I just don't think we need the
Mr., Mrs., Ms. etc. In a social setting, it would be super weird
for someone to introduce my husband and me as Rev. and Mrs.
Hislastname, Esq. They might say "This is Jim and Jem - he's a
pastor and she is a lawyer," but it just seems really strange to
introduce people as Mr. and Mrs. Lastname instead of "This is
Bill and Sue - they live in Nearby City."
And in correspondence, I would prefer to just be addressed as
"Jem Maidenname" for work or "Jem Marriedname" for personal.
When I address business letters I use Robert Jones or Sally
Smith instead of Mr. Jones or Ms. Smith or Mr. Robert Jones or
Mrs. Sally Smith.
[/quote]
I've never heard of anyone adding Esq to an introduction, so
agree with you there. As far as always introducing one adult to
another adult with just their first names, I still think it
depends on the circumstances. If I'm at an average run of the
mill party or event, 90% of the time, no one still uses Mr, Ms,
Judge, Dr when making For instance, years ago I met a former
governor at a fundraising event. I would have found it very odd
had the introductions gone "This is Ann and David. She was the
Governor." Instead it was something like "Governor and Mr.
Richard's may I introduce you to Ms. Hmmm Lastname". Or a good
friend of mine is a University Dean and there is often social
events where they meet with grad students and some undergrads.
While the professor doing the introduction might say "Adria, may
I introduce you to Jen Thompson who is completing her doctorate.
Jen, this is Dean Williams." She wouldn't be introduced as Adria
to the doctorate student. I also still find times that I will
address other adults as Mr or Ms. For instance, my best friend's
father is Mr. Wagner. I do not call him Harold and I would never
introduce him to someone else as Harold. If he chooses to,
invite the introduced person to use his first name, he can. I'm
not going to take that liberty.
On the use of Reverend, I think it depends again on the
situation. Last year, we had a new minister move into the
neighborhood and the neighborhood welcome committee held their
bi-annual meet and welcome event where they and a few other new
families were the guests of honor. I'm pretty sure they were
introduced as Reverend Tony Smith and Michelle Smith. Upon
introduction, they both indicated for the others to call them
Tony & Michelle.
I just don't think we can just throw out it's use just because
everyone is adults.
#Post#: 63069--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: January 26, 2021, 5:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lilipons link=topic=1978.msg62853#msg62853
date=1611243960]
I like ‘twice honorable’! ‘Honorable, honorable’ would be
perfectly proper in German.
[/quote]
In Germany, where they have Herr Doktor and Frau Doktor
And, I am told, Frau Doktor Doktor, if there are two degrees in
the mix.
#Post#: 63086--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Elle Kruger Date: January 26, 2021, 9:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I've been married over forty years. When we went to the bank to
open our very first checking account as a couple, the bank
employee automatically started writing "Mr and Mrs Smith". I
insisted that our account was for "John and Mary Smith". The
employee, who was about my age, couldn't imagine anyone doing
that and wasn't even sure it was legal. I assured her it was
most certainly legal and if it was a problem we'd be happy to
take our business to another bank.
My mom spent her entire adult life signing her name as Mrs. Bob
Jones. When she had to sign her actual name on legal documents,
she always said she felt like it wasn't right. I can't even
imagine that.
#Post#: 63093--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Aleko Date: January 27, 2021, 3:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]In Germany, where they have Herr Doktor and Frau Doktor
And, I am told, Frau Doktor Doktor, if there are two degrees in
the mix.[/quote]
At least now in Germany if you’re introduced to a Frau Doktor,
you know she actually has a degree herself. Fifty years ago it
was correct practice to address the wife of a man with a degree
that way, no matter her own level of education. If you were
introduced to Herr Doktor Schmidt and Frau Doktor Schmidt at an
academic conference, you simply couldn’t tell if she was a
participant herself or had tagged along with hubby for the
festive dinner and a few days’ shopping. I’m glad that custom
has changed.
#Post#: 63097--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Starry Diadem Date: January 27, 2021, 7:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As a (sadly lapsed!) member of the Society of Friends, I had to
train myself to use honorifics/titles where people indicated
they wanted to use them. Quakers don't, you see. I have been
Starry Diadem all my life -- no Miss or Ms Diadem, or Mrs
Diadem's-husband's-name. Our default is to use the full name,
because in the Society, all Friends are equal. That applies to
children speaking to adults, too: there is no disrespect
intended because it's just the way things are done.
Wherever possible on forms, I avoid using Ms (my preferred form,
if I really have to use one) by leaving that bit blank. If the
form is online and insists on my using that box, and if there's
a "Any other information" box on the form, I say "Please address
all correspondence to Starry Diadem. I do not use Miss/Mrs/Ms."
Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.
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