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#Post#: 62928--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: blueyzca Date: January 22, 2021, 5:39 pm
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[quote author=blueyzca link=topic=1978.msg62927#msg62927
date=1611358435]
Maybe TPTB asked Michelle and Laura how they would like to be
addressed.
Beyonce had a world tour entitled "The Mrs. Carter Show World
Tour." I thought it was nice/cute/fun.
I didn't change my last name when I married my husband, and I do
get a chuckle when people address me as Mrs. Schindler (not my
last name).
I think that most people really are trying to be respectful and
we're getting really sensitive about things that aren't hills to
die on. Just my opinion.
[/quote]
And apologies to anyone who really is bothered by this; it's not
my intention to belittle anyone's preferences. I'm almost 54
and I've realized a lot of things that bothered me when I was
younger just don't matter that much.
#Post#: 62933--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: LifeOnPluto Date: January 22, 2021, 10:45 pm
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I'm in my late 30s. The majority of my married female peers
prefer to be known as "Mrs Jane Doe." They'd react with horror
and indignation if they were addressed as "Mrs John Doe." And
yes, the whole 'I didn't take on my husband's entire identity!'
would probably be voiced.
As someone in a long term relationship, with no intention of
changing her name if we ever get married, this bemuses me a
little. By taking on your spouse's last name, it strikes me that
you're already giving up a great chunk of your identity. If
you've gone down that path, I can't see how being "Mrs John Doe"
(and then, only in very formal situations) would be all that
worse.
#Post#: 62936--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Judecat Date: January 22, 2021, 11:07 pm
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Germany and France long ago rejected using the husband's first
name for the wife. Madam
Currie is not madam Pierre Currie. Her name is Marie. When I
would send mail to the family of my friend in Germany (in the
1970's) neither first name was used. The last time anyone
insisted that I was Mrs hisname Lastname was at one of those
churches that taught that women are the man's property, and her
role in life is to wait on him and have his babies. Got out of
both the Church and that marrage in a hurry.
#Post#: 62937--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Gellchom Date: January 23, 2021, 3:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=blueyzca link=topic=1978.msg62927#msg62927
date=1611358435]
Maybe TPTB asked Michelle and Laura how they would like to be
addressed.
Beyonce had a world tour entitled "The Mrs. Carter Show World
Tour." I thought it was nice/cute/fun.
I didn't change my last name when I married my husband, and I do
get a chuckle when people address me as Mrs. Schindler (not my
last name).
I think that most people really are trying to be respectful and
we're getting really sensitive about things that aren't hills to
die on. Just my opinion.
[/quote]
Yes, of course they are trying to be respectful. No one
disagrees with that (and no one said it’s a hill to die on).
That’s what makes it tricky. Indeed, that’s the problem.
People also mean well when they call grown women “young lady” or
“girls.” When they call Black people “a credit to their race.”
When news articles about women focus on their appearance.
The problem is that these well-intentioned “compliments” are
necessarily predicated on an insulting premise: that age is
bad; that women should want to be considered girls, not adults;
that Blacks are so inherently inferior that accomplishment is
unusual and remarkable; that what’s most important about women
is appearance.
The same principle applies to considering using “Mrs.” when it’s
not correct (or her known preference) to be more “respectful.”
Why? Only because the underlying premise is that marriage is
the superior status for a woman and that her marital status is
central to her identity. That’s insulting to both married and
unmarried women.
#Post#: 62979--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Soop Date: January 24, 2021, 9:53 am
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[quote author=LifeOnPluto link=topic=1978.msg62933#msg62933
date=1611377118]
I'm in my late 30s. The majority of my married female peers
prefer to be known as "Mrs Jane Doe." They'd react with horror
and indignation if they were addressed as "Mrs John Doe." And
yes, the whole 'I didn't take on my husband's entire identity!'
would probably be voiced.
As someone in a long term relationship, with no intention of
changing her name if we ever get married, this bemuses me a
little. By taking on your spouse's last name, it strikes me that
you're already giving up a great chunk of your identity. If
you've gone down that path, I can't see how being "Mrs John Doe"
(and then, only in very formal situations) would be all that
worse.
[/quote]
Because, while I have changed my last name to be the same as my
husband, I haven't changed my first name to be the same as my
husband. I didn't relate my identity to my last name. It's all
about choice.
#Post#: 62985--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Hmmm Date: January 24, 2021, 3:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1978.msg62917#msg62917
date=1611350956]
[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1978.msg62893#msg62893
date=1611332483]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1978.msg62855#msg62855
date=1611246843]
As the first post points out, though, why MRS.? It’s
technically incorrect with her first name. Mrs. George Bush,
Laura Bush, or Mrs. Bush, but not Mrs. Laura Bush.
If they wanted to use both her first name and an honorific, the
correct honorific is Ms.: The Honorable George Bush and Ms.
Laura Bush.
Either that or skip the honorific entirely (The Honorable George
Bush and Laura Bush) or the first name (The Honorable George
Bush and Mrs. Bush).
I get it that many women like the “Mrs. Jane Doe” form, and I’m
happy to address anyone the way they prefer, “correct” or not.
But it is not and should not be misidentified as the default
form. I find it so sad that so many people think that the
correct way to style me is “Mrs. Jane Doe,” even though my
husband has a different last name: Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John
Smith. It’s like it’s a big insult to me not to recognize my
“status” as a married woman. That is the whole point of the
honorific “Ms.” - to dump the idea that what’s most important
about a woman (unlike a man) is her marital status, so it must
be advertised in her name.
[/quote]
I sort of like the idea that Mrs. is about HER, and not about
him. It was originally from "Mistress," which simply meant "a
grownup woman."
I like the idea of separating it from the meaning "belongs to."
[/quote]
I like that, too, but what I don't like at all is different
forms of address for married and unmarried women. We don't do
that for men. We should not do it for women. It really is
outrageous when you stop and think about it.
(Ditto the incorrect but often stated belief that "Ms." is just
for business. Same problem. Why would women need a different
form of address for business and for social use? Men don't.)
I find it so frustrating that people seem to think it's
insulting not to use "Mrs." for a married woman. The only basis
for that would be that marriage is a higher status -- and only
for women.
[/quote]
I'd be thrilled to get away from ever using Mrs. and only go to
Ms. But I'm happy with incremental changes like using the
woman's first name with Mrs when the reason she is notable is
because of her husband.
#Post#: 63008--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: holly firestorm Date: January 25, 2021, 1:07 pm
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[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1978.msg62812#msg62812
date=1611162440]
I think it's changed for the better. I have my own name and am
my own person, and wouldn't like to be called Mrs. John Smith.
My name is not John.
If we get a letter, I prefer it addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John
and Jane Smith. Women didn't fight long and hard for rights to
still be thought of as an extension of their husbands.
YMMV
[/quote]
When you think about it, if you use the title 'Mrs.' you still
are and extension of your husband. Once upon a time "Master"
was used for young, unmarried males and "Mister" for grown,
married males. But, now we only use "Mister" (except in TV shows
like Gotham when you want to show how old school the
butler/guardian is). Yet, many women still cling to the old
school "Miss" and "Mrs." If you are changing your title just
because you are married -- and your husband isn't -- you are
still being addressed as an extension of your husband. You
could even say that about changing your name when you get
married. A lot of couples both change their last names now and a
lot of women keep their maiden names.
#Post#: 63017--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: STiG Date: January 25, 2021, 3:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
That's how I've always felt; it's no one's business if I'm
married or not so I always used 'Ms'.
When I got married, I told DH that if it was important to him
for me to have his last name, I was willing to do it but he had
to do all the legwork for it. Make all the calls, print and
fill out all the forms, etc. I knew it would never happen; he
hates bureaucracy even more than I do!
But I don't get my knickers in a twist if someone refers to us
as the (DH's last name)s. Or addresses mail to Mr. and Mrs.
(DH's last name), unless it is something official that needs to
be correct.
#Post#: 63020--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Rose Red Date: January 25, 2021, 3:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1978.msg63008#msg63008
date=1611601657]
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1978.msg62812#msg62812
date=1611162440]
I think it's changed for the better. I have my own name and am
my own person, and wouldn't like to be called Mrs. John Smith.
My name is not John.
If we get a letter, I prefer it addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John
and Jane Smith. Women didn't fight long and hard for rights to
still be thought of as an extension of their husbands.
YMMV
[/quote]
When you think about it, if you use the title 'Mrs.' you still
are and extension of your husband. Once upon a time "Master"
was used for young, unmarried males and "Mister" for grown,
married males. But, now we only use "Mister" (except in TV shows
like Gotham when you want to show how old school the
butler/guardian is). Yet, many women still cling to the old
school "Miss" and "Mrs." If you are changing your title just
because you are married -- and your husband isn't -- you are
still being addressed as an extension of your husband. You
could even say that about changing your name when you get
married. A lot of couples both change their last names now and a
lot of women keep their maiden names.
[/quote]
I believe it's a woman's right to go by her father's name, her
husband's name, hyphenated name, or a made up name. I also
believe it's her right to use Miss, Ms, or Mrs.
There are examples in this thread that some women feel it's
right to use Mrs. Steve Miller (for example). Others like using
Mrs. but want the identity of their own first name. Others like
using Ms. Nobody is wrong. I think it's wonderful that women in
many parts of the world have choices nowadays.
#Post#: 63023--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Jem Date: January 25, 2021, 3:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I keep coming back to why we use any of these words (Mr., Mrs.,
Ms.), especially in today's world of gender fluidity becoming
mainstream. Why can't we just use someone's actual name? I did
take my husband's name, but I use my maiden name professionally
and cannot think of the last time someone called me "Ms." or
"Mrs." anything in real life.
I also am not a fan of people using the terms "Dr." or "Rev." or
"Judge" outside the context of their job.
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