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#Post#: 62869--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: nuku Date: January 21, 2021, 12:14 pm
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[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg62868#msg62868
date=1611251891]
I was a director for the International Moot Court during law
school and very much enjoyed that (when acting as a justice on
the moot court panel) I was referred to (as actual International
Justices are) as "Your Excellency."
[/quote]
I love it when in the Flight of the Conchords, the PM of NZ
visits, & they call him all kinds of "Your Honor" or "Your
Excellency" type titles, & he says "Just call me Brian."
#Post#: 62871--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: nuku Date: January 21, 2021, 12:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1978.msg62855#msg62855
date=1611246843]
As the first post points out, though, why MRS.? It’s
technically incorrect with her first name. Mrs. George Bush,
Laura Bush, or Mrs. Bush, but not Mrs. Laura Bush.
If they wanted to use both her first name and an honorific, the
correct honorific is Ms.: The Honorable George Bush and Ms.
Laura Bush.
Either that or skip the honorific entirely (The Honorable George
Bush and Laura Bush) or the first name (The Honorable George
Bush and Mrs. Bush).
I get it that many women like the “Mrs. Jane Doe” form, and I’m
happy to address anyone the way they prefer, “correct” or not.
But it is not and should not be misidentified as the default
form. I find it so sad that so many people think that the
correct way to style me is “Mrs. Jane Doe,” even though my
husband has a different last name: Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John
Smith. It’s like it’s a big insult to me not to recognize my
“status” as a married woman. That is the whole point of the
honorific “Ms.” - to dump the idea that what’s most important
about a woman (unlike a man) is her marital status, so it must
be advertised in her name.
[/quote]
Only recently, historically Mrs. (from "Mistress") was a title
of respect women held in their own right. It held on as a title
for housekeepers & cooks in upper class households (see: Downton
Abbey), but it came to refer only to married women. Illustrative
of how women's status had actually fallen in the 19th century.
Personally, I prefer Ms. for myself. Let's not get marital
status involved in titles.
#Post#: 62872--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Jem Date: January 21, 2021, 1:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=nuku link=topic=1978.msg62869#msg62869
date=1611252857]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1978.msg62868#msg62868
date=1611251891]
I was a director for the International Moot Court during law
school and very much enjoyed that (when acting as a justice on
the moot court panel) I was referred to (as actual International
Justices are) as "Your Excellency."
[/quote]
I love it when in the Flight of the Conchords, the PM of NZ
visits, & they call him all kinds of "Your Honor" or "Your
Excellency" type titles, & he says "Just call me Brian."
[/quote]
Hah! Yes, in real life I always say, "Call me Jem" rather than
Ms. My Last Name, even in professional settings. I certainly
don't refer to male attorneys I work with as "Mr. Jones" or
"Attorney Jones." I refer to them as "Jason." I do usually use
honorifics for judges though.
#Post#: 62880--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: kckgirl Date: January 21, 2021, 7:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I really don't like the sound of Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe.
Maybe Mr. John and Mrs. Jane Doe. (Don't really like that,
either.)
What about
John and Jane Doe
Street Address
City, State ZIP
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Doe
??????????
#Post#: 62885--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Jem Date: January 22, 2021, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=kckgirl link=topic=1978.msg62880#msg62880
date=1611278626]
I really don't like the sound of Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe.
Maybe Mr. John and Mrs. Jane Doe. (Don't really like that,
either.)
What about
John and Jane Doe
Street Address
City, State ZIP
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Doe
??????????
[/quote]
I definitely prefer using just names without any "Mr." or "Ms."
or "Mrs." I wonder what people who do the pronouns he/his/him or
she/hers/her o they/theirs/them (or whatever it is) think about
such titles. If we as a society are saying that gender doesn't
matter or isn't even really a thing, why would we also use "Mr."
and "Mrs" etc?
#Post#: 62892--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: January 22, 2021, 10:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=nuku link=topic=1978.msg62849#msg62849
date=1611238674]
I think this isn't a case of incorrectly addressing women but of
the etiquette changing due to women insisting (rightly!) to
their identities not just being tied to that of their husbands.
I know very few women under a certain age who are OK being
called Mrs. Husband's First & Last Name. And it would make no
sense for anyone who uses her maiden name along with that of her
husband.
[/quote]
That was my point--perhaps I didn't make it clearly.
#Post#: 62893--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: January 22, 2021, 10:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1978.msg62855#msg62855
date=1611246843]
As the first post points out, though, why MRS.? It’s
technically incorrect with her first name. Mrs. George Bush,
Laura Bush, or Mrs. Bush, but not Mrs. Laura Bush.
If they wanted to use both her first name and an honorific, the
correct honorific is Ms.: The Honorable George Bush and Ms.
Laura Bush.
Either that or skip the honorific entirely (The Honorable George
Bush and Laura Bush) or the first name (The Honorable George
Bush and Mrs. Bush).
I get it that many women like the “Mrs. Jane Doe” form, and I’m
happy to address anyone the way they prefer, “correct” or not.
But it is not and should not be misidentified as the default
form. I find it so sad that so many people think that the
correct way to style me is “Mrs. Jane Doe,” even though my
husband has a different last name: Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John
Smith. It’s like it’s a big insult to me not to recognize my
“status” as a married woman. That is the whole point of the
honorific “Ms.” - to dump the idea that what’s most important
about a woman (unlike a man) is her marital status, so it must
be advertised in her name.
[/quote]
I sort of like the idea that Mrs. is about HER, and not about
him. It was originally from "Mistress," which simply meant "a
grownup woman."
I like the idea of separating it from the meaning "belongs to."
#Post#: 62907--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Aleko Date: January 22, 2021, 12:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote] I sort of like the idea that Mrs. is about HER, and not
about him. It was originally from "Mistress," which simply meant
"a grownup woman."[/quote]
Actually it meant even more than that: it meant (as the OED puts
it) ' A woman having control or authority'.
The earliest (14th century senses) include:
- A woman who has charge of a child or young person.
- The female head of a family, household, or other
establishment; a woman holding such a position in conjunction
with a male counterpart.
- A woman who employs others in her service; a woman who has
authority over servants.
- A female teacher; a woman qualified to teach, or particularly
accomplished in some subject, skill, etc.
In the 15th century we get:
- A woman who acts as patron to a person, cause, etc.
- A woman who has the power to control, use, or dispose of
something at will.
- The female governor of a territory, state, or people.
- A woman who is proficient in an art, craft, or other branch of
study.
All these are good strong meanings. And even the
sexual-relationship sense derived originally from the courtly
love tradition, in which a man knelt before the lady he loved,
declared her his mistress and himself her servant, and promised
to obey her in all things.
#Post#: 62917--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: Gellchom Date: January 22, 2021, 3:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1978.msg62893#msg62893
date=1611332483]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1978.msg62855#msg62855
date=1611246843]
As the first post points out, though, why MRS.? It’s
technically incorrect with her first name. Mrs. George Bush,
Laura Bush, or Mrs. Bush, but not Mrs. Laura Bush.
If they wanted to use both her first name and an honorific, the
correct honorific is Ms.: The Honorable George Bush and Ms.
Laura Bush.
Either that or skip the honorific entirely (The Honorable George
Bush and Laura Bush) or the first name (The Honorable George
Bush and Mrs. Bush).
I get it that many women like the “Mrs. Jane Doe” form, and I’m
happy to address anyone the way they prefer, “correct” or not.
But it is not and should not be misidentified as the default
form. I find it so sad that so many people think that the
correct way to style me is “Mrs. Jane Doe,” even though my
husband has a different last name: Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John
Smith. It’s like it’s a big insult to me not to recognize my
“status” as a married woman. That is the whole point of the
honorific “Ms.” - to dump the idea that what’s most important
about a woman (unlike a man) is her marital status, so it must
be advertised in her name.
[/quote]
I sort of like the idea that Mrs. is about HER, and not about
him. It was originally from "Mistress," which simply meant "a
grownup woman."
I like the idea of separating it from the meaning "belongs to."
[/quote]
I like that, too, but what I don't like at all is different
forms of address for married and unmarried women. We don't do
that for men. We should not do it for women. It really is
outrageous when you stop and think about it.
(Ditto the incorrect but often stated belief that "Ms." is just
for business. Same problem. Why would women need a different
form of address for business and for social use? Men don't.)
I find it so frustrating that people seem to think it's
insulting not to use "Mrs." for a married woman. The only basis
for that would be that marriage is a higher status -- and only
for women.
#Post#: 62927--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle Obama"
--a change to old etiquette
By: blueyzca Date: January 22, 2021, 5:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Maybe TPTB asked Michelle and Laura how they would like to be
addressed.
Beyonce had a world tour entitled "The Mrs. Carter Show World
Tour." I thought it was nice/cute/fun.
I didn't change my last name when I married my husband, and I do
get a chuckle when people address me as Mrs. Schindler (not my
last name).
I think that most people really are trying to be respectful and
we're getting really sensitive about things that aren't hills to
die on. Just my opinion.
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