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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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DIR Return to: Life in General
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#Post#: 62848--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Titanica
Date: January 21, 2021, 8:08 am
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--- Quote from: Lilipons link ---
>
> I agree that the change is a good thing. After all, these
women (and indeed all women) are deserving of their
individuality.
>
> I would also like to propose another change. Kamala Harris’
husband has several times been referred today as the ‘Second
Gentleman’. To me, that’s quite awkward. Because we have never
had a female Veep, Second Lady doesn’t strike most of us as odd.
Second Gentleman does.
>
> Why don’t we just make it ‘Second Spouse’?
>
> Edited to change ‘wayward’ to ‘awkward’. Auto correct works
like the Lord, ‘in strange ways’
>
--- End Quote ---
"Second Spouse" makes it sound like it's the VP's second
marriage.
#Post#: 62849--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: nuku
Date: January 21, 2021, 8:17 am
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I think this isn't a case of incorrectly addressing women but of
the etiquette changing due to women insisting (rightly!) to
their identities not just being tied to that of their husbands.
I know very few women under a certain age who are OK being
called Mrs. Husband's First & Last Name. And it would make no
sense for anyone who uses her maiden name along with that of her
husband.
#Post#: 62850--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: NewHomeowner
Date: January 21, 2021, 8:19 am
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--- Quote from: TootsNYC link ---
>
> [quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=1978.msg62811#msg62811
date=1611161833]
> I may be in error here, but I think Hillary Clinton's name is
prefaced with the word Honorable because she was a Senator.
>
--- End Quote ---
That could be. And of course it comes first. Cabinet positions
not? I'll have to look.
It is both.
HTML https://www.formsofaddress.info/secretary_cabinet_member/
--- Quote ---
> —-#1) Such high former officials appointed by the President
and approved by the Senate continue to be in writing:
> ————The Honorable (Full Name)
>
>
--- End Quote ---
So is she "the Honorable Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton"? And
since former governors are "the Honorable," is her husband "the
Honorable Honorable Bill Clinton"?
(just kidding)
[/quote]
How about 'The Twice Honorable....' That has a cool ring to
it. :D
#Post#: 62852--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: NyaChan
Date: January 21, 2021, 9:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LadyJaneinMD link ---
>
> [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1978.msg62818#msg62818
date=1611169137]
> [quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=1978.msg62811#msg62811
date=1611161833]
> I may be in error here, but I think Hillary Clinton's name is
prefaced with the word Honorable because she was a Senator.
>
--- End Quote ---
That could be. And of course it comes first. Cabinet positions
not? I'll have to look.
It is both.
HTML https://www.formsofaddress.info/secretary_cabinet_member/
--- Quote ---
> —-#1) Such high former officials appointed by the President
and approved by the Senate continue to be in writing:
> ————The Honorable (Full Name)
>
>
--- End Quote ---
So is she "the Honorable Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton"? And
since former governors are "the Honorable," is her husband "the
Honorable Honorable Bill Clinton"?
(just kidding)
[/quote]
How about 'The Twice Honorable....' That has a cool ring to
it. :D
[/quote]
Oh that’s fun :D I like
#Post#: 62853--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Lilipons
Date: January 21, 2021, 9:46 am
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I like ‘twice honorable’! ‘Honorable, honorable’ would be
perfectly proper in German.
#Post#: 62855--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Gellchom
Date: January 21, 2021, 10:34 am
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As the first post points out, though, why MRS.? It’s
technically incorrect with her first name. Mrs. George Bush,
Laura Bush, or Mrs. Bush, but not Mrs. Laura Bush.
If they wanted to use both her first name and an honorific, the
correct honorific is Ms.: The Honorable George Bush and Ms.
Laura Bush.
Either that or skip the honorific entirely (The Honorable George
Bush and Laura Bush) or the first name (The Honorable George
Bush and Mrs. Bush).
I get it that many women like the “Mrs. Jane Doe” form, and I’m
happy to address anyone the way they prefer, “correct” or not.
But it is not and should not be misidentified as the default
form. I find it so sad that so many people think that the
correct way to style me is “Mrs. Jane Doe,” even though my
husband has a different last name: Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John
Smith. It’s like it’s a big insult to me not to recognize my
“status” as a married woman. That is the whole point of the
honorific “Ms.” - to dump the idea that what’s most important
about a woman (unlike a man) is her marital status, so it must
be advertised in her name.
#Post#: 62856--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: January 21, 2021, 10:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NyaChan link ---
>
> [quote author=LadyJaneinMD link=topic=1978.msg62850#msg62850
date=1611238787]
> [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1978.msg62818#msg62818
date=1611169137]
> [quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=1978.msg62811#msg62811
date=1611161833]
> I may be in error here, but I think Hillary Clinton's name is
prefaced with the word Honorable because she was a Senator.
>
--- End Quote ---
That could be. And of course it comes first. Cabinet positions
not? I'll have to look.
It is both.
HTML https://www.formsofaddress.info/secretary_cabinet_member/
--- Quote ---
> —-#1) Such high former officials appointed by the President
and approved by the Senate continue to be in writing:
> ————The Honorable (Full Name)
>
>
--- End Quote ---
So is she "the Honorable Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton"? And
since former governors are "the Honorable," is her husband "the
Honorable Honorable Bill Clinton"?
(just kidding)
[/quote]
How about 'The Twice Honorable....' That has a cool ring to
it. :D
[/quote]
Oh that’s fun :D I like
[/quote]
Oh no, there would be way to many Twice Honorables. We might
even have to start with "Thrice Honorable" for some.
#Post#: 62862--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Aleko
Date: January 21, 2021, 11:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I would also like to propose another change. Kamala Harris’
husband has several times been referred today as the ‘Second
Gentleman’. To me, that’s quite awkward. Because we have never
had a female Veep, Second Lady doesn’t strike most of us as odd.
Second Gentleman does.
>
> Why don’t we just make it ‘Second Spouse’?
--- End Quote ---
Also, as the Washington correspondent of the London Times
pointed out today, 'Second Gentleman' just sounds like the
smallest part in a Shakespeare play. You know, when the play
starts with two courtiers in an antechamber of the palace; to
put the audience in the picture, the First Gentleman starts
explaining to the Second Gentleman that the King has died (or
gone mad), his heir has gone missing (or mad), his daughter has
fled from the palace (probably to the Forest of Arden) and the
French (or the Scots, or the Venetians, or the sledded Polacks)
are about to invade the kingdom. Meanwhile all the Second
Gentleman does is help the First's exposition along with
occasional remarks like 'How so, my lord?' 'I pray you, tell',
''Heaven forfend!' and ''Tis wondrous lamentable!'. The First
and Second Gentleman usually only appear in that one scene;
after that the actors do a quick change because they're needed
later to double as soldiers, revolting peasants, fairies,
aggrieved citizens or what-have-you.
#Post#: 62867--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Rose Red
Date: January 21, 2021, 11:57 am
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I read a novel in the 80's where a character became the first
female US President. Her husband was called the First Gentleman.
All these decades later, I can't think of another title. First
Dude and First Guy is fun, but not appropriate or formal enough
for official occasions.
The book was The President's Daughter by Ellen Emerson White for
those interested.
#Post#: 62868--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Mrs. Laura Bush," "Mrs. Michelle
Obama"--a change to old etiquette
DIR By: Jem
Date: January 21, 2021, 11:58 am
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I was a director for the International Moot Court during law
school and very much enjoyed that (when acting as a justice on
the moot court panel) I was referred to (as actual International
Justices are) as "Your Excellency."
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