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#Post#: 58054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: chigger Date: September 25, 2020, 3:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1871.msg58049#msg58049
date=1601063905]
[quote author=chigger link=topic=1871.msg58046#msg58046
date=1601062936]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1871.msg58043#msg58043
date=1601062077]
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1871.msg58033#msg58033
date=1601056971]
So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its
original meaning and is already being used by "the other side"
to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no
matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.
[/quote]
I'm sorry you had that experience. I know in my group of
friends, we only use the phrase very light heartedly, and it is
actually more often used toward the men in the group. Another
example was a group of us, two men and two women, went to Subway
to get food because we knew we were going to be busy outdoors
for a long time. We each ordered a footlong, half to eat when we
ordered it and half to save for later. One of the men said
something like, "Oh, and can I get the footlong cut into two six
inches and wrapped separately please?" to which the other man
(this was my husband) said, "Wow, Karen," to our friend. Then my
husband said to the sandwich artist, "But actually, that's a
good idea. Is that something you can do?"
I guess my point is that some people use the term to be rude and
derogatory, but others are just lightheartedly commenting to be
funny. In my experience it isn't even directed only to women.
[/quote]
But ya'll are still doing it, light hearted or not. Your husband
could have just called your friend a snowflake. Let's say your
name is actually Jem. How would you feel if every headline, with
video showing a woman that fits your demographic, was titled
"Jem threatens black man in central park" or "Jem called the
cops on black child selling lemonade" or "Jem calls police on
black family at pool, says they can't possibly live there". That
is only three examples, but I could go on for many, many more.
Then it becomes any person in your demographic is "A Jem". Then
any person in your demographic that tries to enforce rules is a
"Jem". Tell me how you would feel?
[/quote]
I personally would not likely care, but that's just me. I know I
am not a "Jem" (if this is meant to imply something derogatory)
and people who know me also know that. So if someone thought
negatively about me based on a headline calling someone else a
"Jem" I would really question whether I valued their opinion!
Like I said, I am sorry that some people are having negative
experiences. I think there are all sorts of things some people
say lightheartedly and others say to be mean or derogatory.
Examples include "Becky," "Blondie," "Brutus," etc. I can
generally tell when a person is being lighthearted and when they
are intending to be rude.
[/quote]
Then you probably don't have a name that dates you! I can tell
you for a fact that MOST people named Karen are heartily sick of
the memes and the headlines! Imagine calling customer service
for anything, and you give your name and you hear them stifle a
laugh. Happens every damn time, now. I still believe, if you
are going to LABEL someone, you should use your vocabulary and
not use MY name. You really don't understand how insulting it's
become. I hope you never do.
#Post#: 58055--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: jpcher Date: September 25, 2020, 3:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Wow. Lots of words going on here . . . and I'm on the side that
the given name "Karen" is derogatory to all those Karen's out
there in the world (my middle name is Karen) simply because it
points to a certain persona (white, female, blunt haircut, etc.)
When I first started seeing the "Karen" memes I thought that
they were funny, especially embracing the term we use here as a
"Special Snowflake."
To me Karen = Special Snowflake. We've talked about the people
who demanded extra or special services from managers, cashiers,
waitstaff, whatever because they thought they were entitled and
would.not.take.NO.for an answer. That's what I'm thinking a
Karen is.
Granted giving a special snowflake a particular name and look
didn't even cross my mind until I read this thread.
I never thought about Karen being racist (okay the memes show
that she's white with a certain hair style . . . maybe
stereotyped instead of racist?) because there are all sorts of
people out there in this world that have the same attitude. "I'm
Special. You MUST listen to me!"
To all the real Karens out there on this board I'm sorry your
name was picked for this meme. It could have been Shelly or Lisa
or Kathy.
#Post#: 58060--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: Rose Red Date: September 25, 2020, 5:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I also wish it isn't a real name. However, I never heard of
"Karen" used as a racist until the horrific events of this
summer. I use to only hear it applied to entitled women of all
ages and race. Now It seems they took it and twisted it to mean
only middle age white women.
Karen was a favorite name of mine. Whenever we were assigned to
write a story in school, my main character was usually called
Karen.
#Post#: 58066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: holly firestorm Date: September 25, 2020, 9:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=PVZFan link=topic=1871.msg58048#msg58048
date=1601063788]
[quote author=chigger link=topic=1871.msg58046#msg58046
date=1601062936]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1871.msg58043#msg58043
date=1601062077]
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1871.msg58033#msg58033
date=1601056971]
So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its
original meaning and is already being used by "the other side"
to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no
matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.
[/quote]
I'm sorry you had that experience. I know in my group of
friends, we only use the phrase very light heartedly, and it is
actually more often used toward the men in the group. Another
example was a group of us, two men and two women, went to Subway
to get food because we knew we were going to be busy outdoors
for a long time. We each ordered a footlong, half to eat when we
ordered it and half to save for later. One of the men said
something like, "Oh, and can I get the footlong cut into two six
inches and wrapped separately please?" to which the other man
(this was my husband) said, "Wow, Karen," to our friend. Then my
husband said to the sandwich artist, "But actually, that's a
good idea. Is that something you can do?"
I guess my point is that some people use the term to be rude and
derogatory, but others are just lightheartedly commenting to be
funny. In my experience it isn't even directed only to women.
[/quote]
But ya'll are still doing it, light hearted or not. Your husband
could have just called your friend a snowflake. Let's say your
name is actually Jem. How would you feel if every headline, with
video showing a woman that fits your demographic, was titled
"Jem threatens black man in central park" or "Jem called the
cops on black child selling lemonade" or "Jem calls police on
black family at pool, says they can't possibly live there". That
is only three examples, but I could go on for many, many more.
[/quote]
I'm sorry you're having that experience too.
I didn't think of the racist connotation until I looked at the
dictionary.com listing. The term has evolved to include that,
but, when I come across it, either IRL or online, I find it to
be more of the "I need to see your manager" or "I want
super-special treatment" variety.
I do find it's used to try to stifle women's voices. A
reasonable request or seeking to rectify something puts one at
risk of being dismissed as a Karen. I've found myself, when
making a completely typical, normal customer service request
saying, "Not to be a Karen, but...." In hindsight, I really
didn't like that I did it. Why soften the request or permission
seek when the person who'd been addressing this situation with
me had the facts completely wrong?
There was an AITA on Reddit where the sales force was referring
to all women as Karen. Little girls were "Baby Karens" etc. etc.
They were calling one of the only women in the office Karen. She
started calling all of them Kevin. (Although, based on their
behavior, I would have gone with Chad. I think that's consistent
with how your daughter is using it, Jayhawk.)
"Kevin" stuck with the whole office. The sales team was upset.
The poster said she wasn't dropping Kevin until they'd dropped
Karen and went one week without calling her Karen.
[/quote]
"I'm sorry you had that experience." "I'm sorry you're having
that experience too." Not only are you being dismissive,
probably unintentionally...but, you'd have to do an awful lot of
apologizing if you're going to cover all the women who have had
experiences like that. I'm actually GLAD I had that experience
because I've been predicting it since June. When it happened it
was proof that what I'd been saying had been right all along. As
you do say yourself, "I do find it's used to try to stifle
women's voices. A reasonable request or seeking to rectify
something puts one at risk of being dismissed as a Karen. "
Instead of saying "not to be a Karen" try saying something like,
"I hope this request isn't out of line," or "I don't want to be
too high maintenance." or "I have a request, but, if it's a pain
in the neck for you, don't worry, we can skip it."
#Post#: 58068--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: holly firestorm Date: September 25, 2020, 9:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=jpcher link=topic=1871.msg58055#msg58055
date=1601066482]
Wow. Lots of words going on here . . . and I'm on the side that
the given name "Karen" is derogatory to all those Karen's out
there in the world (my middle name is Karen) simply because it
points to a certain persona (white, female, blunt haircut, etc.)
When I first started seeing the "Karen" memes I thought that
they were funny, especially embracing the term we use here as a
"Special Snowflake."
To me Karen = Special Snowflake. We've talked about the people
who demanded extra or special services from managers, cashiers,
waitstaff, whatever because they thought they were entitled and
would.not.take.NO.for an answer. That's what I'm thinking a
Karen is.
Granted giving a special snowflake a particular name and look
didn't even cross my mind until I read this thread.
I never thought about Karen being racist (okay the memes show
that she's white with a certain hair style . . . maybe
stereotyped instead of racist?) because there are all sorts of
people out there in this world that have the same attitude. "I'm
Special. You MUST listen to me!"
To all the real Karens out there on this board I'm sorry your
name was picked for this meme. It could have been Shelly or Lisa
or Kathy.
[/quote]
That's what I was told it meant originally. And I have met
PLENTY of Black and Asian women (just for example) who do the
same thing and have the same attitude. But, yes, it's racist,
sexist and ageist, too. Cute young women are rarely accused of
being "Karens" And it wouldn't be any better if another name
like Shelley, Lisa or Kathy was used. I'm sick of people STILL
trying to disempower middle aged and older women.
This is also a way to weaken the "Me Too" movement by
dismissing women's comments and dividing the young girls who
embrace this "Karen" thing as supposedly anti-racist from older
women.
#Post#: 58071--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: LifeOnPluto Date: September 26, 2020, 12:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I just want to say that all the Karens I know in real life are
lovely people who don't fit this trope at all. I am truly sorry
for all the people called Karen whose name has been turned into
what is really starting to amount to an ugly slur.
I agree that there doesn't seem to be a male equivalent. I've
heard "Chad" used to describe a "frat guy" or a "jock", but
that's not really the same as a "Karen".
#Post#: 58078--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: Hmmm Date: September 26, 2020, 10:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1871.msg58043#msg58043
date=1601062077]
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1871.msg58033#msg58033
date=1601056971]
So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its
original meaning and is already being used by "the other side"
to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no
matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.
[/quote]
I'm sorry you had that experience. I know in my group of
friends, we only use the phrase very light heartedly, and it is
actually more often used toward the men in the group. Another
example was a group of us, two men and two women, went to Subway
to get food because we knew we were going to be busy outdoors
for a long time. We each ordered a footlong, half to eat when we
ordered it and half to save for later. One of the men said
something like, "Oh, and can I get the footlong cut into two six
inches and wrapped separately please?" to which the other man
(this was my husband) said, "Wow, Karen," to our friend. Then my
husband said to the sandwich artist, "But actually, that's a
good idea. Is that something you can do?"
I guess my point is that some people use the term to be rude and
derogatory, but others are just lightheartedly commenting to be
funny. In my experience it isn't even directed only to women.
[/quote]
But it still supports the stereotype. Telling a man he is acting
like a woman has always been a put down because women are
perceived as inferior. When have you heard "He's really good. He
can hit the ball like a woman."
#Post#: 58093--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: BlueWave Date: September 26, 2020, 3:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=chigger link=topic=1871.msg58044#msg58044
date=1601062265]
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1871.msg58033#msg58033
date=1601056971]
I posted this on my Facebook page in June: When I was young
there used to be this t-shirt, "B**ch: a kind, gentle-hearted
woman who's been bullied, picked on, abused and dismissed once
too often." It came about because of all the misogynists who
called women "b**ches" any time they 'stepped out of line' or
didn't know their place. Now there's a new slang word "Karen"
which is SUPPOSED to refer to anyone who thinks they're so
special they matter and no one else does. But, since I first
saw it being used, I've NEVER seen if refer to a male*, anyone
who isn't white, in fact, not even someone who's young. If a
male acts like a racist, he's just called a racist. If a woman
acts like a racist, she's a "racist Karen." It seems to me what
that insult really means is "middle aged or older white WOMAN
who doesn't know her place." Especially for all those who hate
being called "snowflake" or "libertard." but call any woman you
don't want to screw and who disagrees with you a "Karen,"
Congratulations, you've shown there's no difference between you
and the racists you've been raging about after all.
* Since then I have seen one or two memes about "Kens" or
"Kevins" but nowhere near the hundreds of "Karen" memes.
Additionally, Some men will gaslight, bully, dismiss a woman for
speaking up, even now. This "Karen" crap is just another way to
put a woman you don't want to play scrabble with in her place.
If a man refuses to wear a mask in a public area he's just
called an ***hole, but, a woman is called a Karen. But, at the
archery range where I shoot we are required by the Park
Department to wear masks when not shooting. They will close us
down if we do not comply with COVID restrictions, including
this. As a Range volunteer I'm supposed to at least ask people
if they have a mask with them. One jerk got nasty about it and
tried to bully me into not saying anything. He's at least 30
years younger than me and had the gall to order me, "I told you
not to talk to me." I 'reported' him to the Archery Facebook
Group (not even the Park Dept.) About 20 people supported me
including 3 instructors, 2 of whom are Club Board members. But,
two "trolls" started in with the insults and veiled threats,
even after the Head Instructor backed me and told them to
behave. Among their insults was calling me a "Karen." Now,
previously one of our male members (B) complained about someone
else who didn't want to wear a mask. These 'trolls' didn't have
a word to say about that. (PS: The trolls were kicked out of
the group and the "I told you not to talk to me," boy was
personally told by the head instructor that I was right and he
was supposed to wear that mask when not shooting.
So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its
original meaning and is already being used by "the other side"
to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no
matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.
[/quote]
Yes! The term "A Karen" is sexist, ageist, and truth be told,
racist also! To be a Karen, you have to be female, middle aged,
and white. So tell me that's not a slur! Those of us that carry
that name are starting to find it exhausting, since mainstream
media has picked it up as their new catchphrase.
[/quote]
To the bolded: no, it is not racist. Racism denotes power. You
cannot be racist towards whites as the power structure is build
entirely in their favor. You can prejudiced against them, but
not racist.
#Post#: 58096--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: chigger Date: September 26, 2020, 3:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mea culpa, let me change that to prejudiced!
#Post#: 58100--------------------------------------------------
Re: Okay Karen
By: holly firestorm Date: September 26, 2020, 4:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=BlueWave link=topic=1871.msg58093#msg58093
date=1601151367]
[quote author=chigger link=topic=1871.msg58044#msg58044
date=1601062265]
[quote author=holly firestorm link=topic=1871.msg58033#msg58033
date=1601056971]
I posted this on my Facebook page in June: When I was young
there used to be this t-shirt, "B**ch: a kind, gentle-hearted
woman who's been bullied, picked on, abused and dismissed once
too often." It came about because of all the misogynists who
called women "b**ches" any time they 'stepped out of line' or
didn't know their place. Now there's a new slang word "Karen"
which is SUPPOSED to refer to anyone who thinks they're so
special they matter and no one else does. But, since I first
saw it being used, I've NEVER seen if refer to a male*, anyone
who isn't white, in fact, not even someone who's young. If a
male acts like a racist, he's just called a racist. If a woman
acts like a racist, she's a "racist Karen." It seems to me what
that insult really means is "middle aged or older white WOMAN
who doesn't know her place." Especially for all those who hate
being called "snowflake" or "libertard." but call any woman you
don't want to screw and who disagrees with you a "Karen,"
Congratulations, you've shown there's no difference between you
and the racists you've been raging about after all.
* Since then I have seen one or two memes about "Kens" or
"Kevins" but nowhere near the hundreds of "Karen" memes.
Additionally, Some men will gaslight, bully, dismiss a woman for
speaking up, even now. This "Karen" crap is just another way to
put a woman you don't want to play scrabble with in her place.
If a man refuses to wear a mask in a public area he's just
called an ***hole, but, a woman is called a Karen. But, at the
archery range where I shoot we are required by the Park
Department to wear masks when not shooting. They will close us
down if we do not comply with COVID restrictions, including
this. As a Range volunteer I'm supposed to at least ask people
if they have a mask with them. One jerk got nasty about it and
tried to bully me into not saying anything. He's at least 30
years younger than me and had the gall to order me, "I told you
not to talk to me." I 'reported' him to the Archery Facebook
Group (not even the Park Dept.) About 20 people supported me
including 3 instructors, 2 of whom are Club Board members. But,
two "trolls" started in with the insults and veiled threats,
even after the Head Instructor backed me and told them to
behave. Among their insults was calling me a "Karen." Now,
previously one of our male members (B) complained about someone
else who didn't want to wear a mask. These 'trolls' didn't have
a word to say about that. (PS: The trolls were kicked out of
the group and the "I told you not to talk to me," boy was
personally told by the head instructor that I was right and he
was supposed to wear that mask when not shooting.
So, another confirmation that this "Karen" crap has lost its
original meaning and is already being used by "the other side"
to put a woman, especially an older white woman, in her place no
matter what its original meaning was supposed to be.
[/quote]
Yes! The term "A Karen" is sexist, ageist, and truth be told,
racist also! To be a Karen, you have to be female, middle aged,
and white. So tell me that's not a slur! Those of us that carry
that name are starting to find it exhausting, since mainstream
media has picked it up as their new catchphrase.
[/quote]
To the bolded: no, it is not racist. Racism denotes power. You
cannot be racist towards whites as the power structure is build
entirely in their favor. You can prejudiced against them, but
not racist.
[/quote]
Your very political rhetoric has more holes in it than a
sandwich with Swiss cheese. For one thing, I'd like to point out
you can be racist against your own ethnic group. Since it's
being directed at one particular race, yes, it's racist. I could
go on, but, since BMB eschews biased or partisan political
discussions (because they turn into arguments) I'll leave it at
that. I won't be answering any attempts to do so either.
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