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#Post#: 56167--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: Hanna Date: August 18, 2020, 8:48 am
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[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1821.msg56162#msg56162
date=1597754282]
[quote]I’ve read a few books about Marie Antoinette and think
being royal sounds wretched. She left her mother still a child,
and never saw her own family again. She was never even allowed
to speak her own language again or wear her own clothes. Pretty
sure she never saw the ocean. Anyone and everyone was allowed to
watch them live their daily lives including intimate daily
routines.[/quote]
Yes to all of that - which was absolutely normal for royalty.
She was also hated just for being foreign: "that Austrian
woman!' and suspected of undermining France for the sake of her
own birth family. This too was a very common experience for
queens throughout the medieval and early modern periods. For
this reason, it wasn't unusual for a king to banish all the
servants and ladies- and gentlemen-in-waiting that his new bride
(or his heir's bride) had brought from her home, and replace
them with subjects of his own who often couldn't even speak her
own language. That must have been extraordinarily painful and
frightening. A princess might rarely have even seen her parents
and might not have felt the loss of them (though this wasn't
true of Marie Antoinette: her parents Maria Theresia and Franz
Stephan led a cosy home life); but she would likely be sent to
her bridegroom with people from her own household, and these
would have been the people she was closest to - her nanny, her
tutor, the groom who had put her on her first pony, the ladies,
gentlemen and pages she saw and talked to every day.
[/quote]
Yes, all of that happened to her. And the cultural differences
between their families must have been quite stark. The Hapsburgs
were not typical spoiled do-nothing royalty.
It was all really heartbreaking to read. Then the course
involvement in their sex lives. Her husband was also just a
child when they were forced into marriage.
It makes me livid to think that history painted her so unfairly.
She was actually a kind woman and indeed comparatively, they
were very cautious and thoughtful financially. The need for a
country to impress with gross displays of wealth was not her
doing.
#Post#: 56173--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: lakey Date: August 18, 2020, 10:22 am
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Princess Diana was like every other human being, a mixture of
strengths and weaknesses. The public put her on a pedestal. Then
little by little, people found out that when you take away the
expensive clothes, jewelry, and luxurious lifestyle, she was
just like everyone else, an imperfect person trying make a
workable life for herself.
#Post#: 56176--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: Hanna Date: August 18, 2020, 11:09 am
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[quote author=lakey link=topic=1821.msg56173#msg56173
date=1597764170]
Princess Diana was like every other human being, a mixture of
strengths and weaknesses. The public put her on a pedestal. Then
little by little, people found out that when you take away the
expensive clothes, jewelry, and luxurious lifestyle, she was
just like everyone else, an imperfect person trying make a
workable life for herself.
[/quote]
I think the people who do cherish her memory, but never met her,
tend to like her for that reason exactly. She was the human
condition personified, on a global stage. Yet she used the
platform she had to help others. One might argue she did it for
the admiration. I don’t think so. But truly I don’t care.
Might also explain why many Americans did and still love her. We
like real, flawed people who don’t act like they are perfect.
#Post#: 56178--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: TootsNYC Date: August 18, 2020, 11:41 am
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[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1821.msg56149#msg56149
date=1597721354]
When I think of Diana, I think of her campaign against
landmines. I was impressed by that.
[/quote]
That's the one I think of always as well.
Though she was very visible in her willingness to touch AIDS
patients, and thereby humanize them.
HTML https://time.com/4914377/princess-diana-humanitarian-work/
#Post#: 56196--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: lakey Date: August 18, 2020, 4:47 pm
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[quote]Re: On princesses
« Reply #22 on: Today at 11:09:16 am »
Quote
Quote from: lakey on Today at 10:22:50 am
Princess Diana was like every other human being, a mixture of
strengths and weaknesses. The public put her on a pedestal. Then
little by little, people found out that when you take away the
expensive clothes, jewelry, and luxurious lifestyle, she was
just like everyone else, an imperfect person trying make a
workable life for herself.
I think the people who do cherish her memory, but never met her,
tend to like her for that reason exactly. She was the human
condition personified, on a global stage. Yet she used the
platform she had to help others. One might argue she did it for
the admiration. I don’t think so. But truly I don’t care.
Might also explain why many Americans did and still love her. We
like real, flawed people who don’t act like their perfect.
[/quote]
I agree. Idolizing people will leave you disappointed. Admiring
someone for what they accomplish in spite of their problems
gives you a good example to follow. There are many people who
are devastated after a failed relationship or a divorce. She
showed that you can move on.
#Post#: 56458--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: Winterlight Date: August 25, 2020, 12:29 pm
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[quote author=chigger link=topic=1821.msg56140#msg56140
date=1597711807]
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1821.msg56137#msg56137
date=1597710942]
[quote author=Winterlight link=topic=1821.msg56134#msg56134
date=1597709262]
[quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
link=topic=1821.msg56132#msg56132 date=1597706752]
[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1821.msg56129#msg56129
date=1597702325]
You think Princess Diana is a role model for little girls? Or
indeed anyone at all ? Dear heavens.
[/quote]
I think that as long as you don't dig too deep, she's a good
role model--mainly her picking charitable endeavors that
required more courage than opening a hospital somewhere.
But, as to her neurosis, I agree with you.
[/quote]
Well, I'd say she was a cautionary tale, if nothing else. "This
is what happens when you raise your child to think that her only
value is being a wife and mother, and she falls for the wrong
guy."
[/quote]
Did she actually fall for him or was it just considered a great
catch for a young woman of her social standing?
[/quote]
I think it was probably both! If Diana had not really cared for
Charles, she would not have been so destroyed over the
realization that he and Camilla were in a long time affair. I
think she was very, very naive, as most 19 year olds are,
especially then.
[/quote]
Agreed. He was definitely a catch for her- she was the daughter
of an earl, yes, but she wasn't academically inclined or really
interested in a career (admittedly, few young women in her set
were either of those), so marriage was where she was going to
go, and the Prince of Wales was very much sought after. And
also, she was young, probably somewhat in love with love, and
living what appeared to be a fairy tale. But I think she was
genuinely in love with him in the beginning, which is why things
went so badly when she found out about Camilla.
#Post#: 56537--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: JeanFromBNA Date: August 26, 2020, 2:17 pm
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[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1821.msg56129#msg56129
date=1597702325]
You think Princess Diana is a role model for little girls? Or
indeed anyone at all ? Dear heavens.
[/quote]
I admit that I'm curious why you feel that way. Care to share?
#Post#: 56918--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: Star Wars Fan Date: September 4, 2020, 10:31 pm
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[quote author=lakey link=topic=1821.msg56173#msg56173
date=1597764170]
Princess Diana was like every other human being, a mixture of
strengths and weaknesses. The public put her on a pedestal. Then
little by little, people found out that when you take away the
expensive clothes, jewelry, and luxurious lifestyle, she was
just like everyone else, an imperfect person trying make a
workable life for herself.
[/quote]
Princess Diana still makes the rest of the royal family (with
the exception of Queen Elizabeth) look like escapees from an
insane asylum. I think they just might be. ::)
Ed.
#Post#: 56941--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: pierrotlunaire0 Date: September 5, 2020, 11:30 am
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[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1821.msg56154#msg56154
date=1597748536]
I’ve read a few books about Marie Antoinette and think being
royal sounds wretched. She left her mother still a child, and
never saw her own family again. She was never even allowed to
speak her own language again or wear her own clothes. Pretty
sure she never saw the ocean. Anyone and everyone was allowed to
watch them live their daily lives including intimate daily
routines. They placed the head of her closest friend on a spike
and paraded it around outside the window where she was
imprisoned with no access to her own children. She was basically
a prisoner from a young age, then excoriated for it to the point
that even today people believe she was a selfish person who
deserved what she got. The likelihood is that is not true at
all.
[/quote]
I always thought the final touch of horror was when they got her
very young son to accuse her of repeatedly sexually molesting
him at her trial. When she didn't respond, the judge said, "You
have no words to defend yourself?" And she replied, "I have no
words. No mother would have words to express her horror at being
accused of such a monstrous crime of motherhood." She turned to
the crowd (who hated her), and said, "I appeal to all the
mothers here." And the women roared in her support, which was
incredible considering that these were the same women who wanted
to literally tear her apart.
#Post#: 57090--------------------------------------------------
Re: On princesses
By: Isisnin Date: September 8, 2020, 9:36 pm
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Lately, I have been rereading about Empress Elizabeth of
Austria. Born Princess Elizabeth of Bavaria, Sissi to her
family. Her marriage (1854) to Emperor Franz-Joseph of Austria
was a love match, but since she was only 16 at the time, I
suspect it was more like a crush she had on Franz-Joseph.
Her biography is fascinating. Highlighted, she had an unhappy
marriage and family life mostly due to her mother-in-law (who
was also Sissi's aunt). Her mother-in-law took her children away
from her when they were born. Franz-Joseph gave her gonorrhea
from which she suffered from for the rest of her life. Her son,
the heir to the throne, had a nervous breakdown at the age of 5
due to how the mother-in-law was raising him. By then Sissi was
politically savvy and well-loved by the people of the Austrian
empire. She was out of the country when she heard about her son
and she wrote Franz-Joseph that she was to be given full control
of her children immediately or she would never return to
Austria. Franz-Joseph capitulated so she returned and had her
children back.
She was so politically skilled that she was very influential in
keeping the empire together to the point that historians and
political scientists give her most of the credit for Hungary
staying with the empire and the Austrio-Hungarian empire being
created (she was considered a liberal since she believed in the
right of the people to vote and had advocated for Hungary to
have its own parliament with Franz-Joseph as King)
The end of her life was very tragic. Her son and one of his
mistresses committed double suicide. 9 years later, Sissi was
assassinated by an anarchist. Some speculate that if she had
lived, she would have been very influential in avoiding World
War I.
She is well worth reading about plus watching any one the
European mini-series that have been made about her.
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