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#Post#: 43812--------------------------------------------------
But I want to talk about it!
By: Hmmm Date: December 16, 2019, 8:30 am
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About 2 weeks ago, Sue, Kay and I were at a happy hour with
friends, all in our late to mid 50s', and retirement planning
came up and Sue interjected in the conversation that could we
not discuss our retirement planning because we all know she'll
be working past 70 and it depresses her. We all laughed and
changed the subject. Sue chose, not forced, to change career
paths in her late 40's and with the cost of the second degree
and living off savings during her back to school years, she will
have to work longer than most of us.
Sue, Kay and I attended a group hike on Sunday with about 10
other people, most of us in a similar age group. There was one
couple I had not met and we got to hiking and chatting together
while Sue and Kay were walking in front of us in a different
conversation. This couple was semi-retired and were living a
lifestyle I was considering for retirement. We were deep in
discussion about their experiences and pros and cons when Sue
fell back into our smaller group, listened for a bit and
remarked "Oh geez, is retirement the only thing you talk about
now?" This made the other couple uncomfortable and shut down the
conversation but I just said "well, it seems Sue thinks I have a
one track mind" and changed the subject to travel to places I
knew Sue had been.
But I was annoyed. I was getting good information from this
couple. At the end of the hike, the wife and I exchanged contact
information and I explained that Sue was a little touchy about
the subject. Wife said her and her husband have experienced the
reaction before, especially since they retired younger than
most. She remarked it was like back in the days when her
child-less friends complained if she brought up her children. It
hit me then that was exactly the way Sue had been reacting at
this, the previous and a few more times when the topic came up.
I want to say something to Sue. I'm thinking along the lines of
"Sue, I understand you are disappointed that you won't be
retiring in the same timeframe as some of your peers. But it
bothers me that you shut down any conversation about it when you
are around. Can you try to at least pretend to be interested or
if not excuse yourself to a different group if you really don't
like the conversation? I don't think it is fair to the rest of
us to be on eggshells around you about this topic."
Or should I be more sensitive and make sure to not bring up the
subject when she is around? In my mind, Sue made a choice she
was well aware would change her path in life. Should our
conversations be stymied because of her choice?
#Post#: 43816--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: NFPwife Date: December 16, 2019, 8:47 am
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[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1445.msg43812#msg43812
date=1576506616]
.....
I want to say something to Sue. I'm thinking along the lines of
"Sue, I understand you are disappointed that you won't be
retiring in the same timeframe as some of your peers. But it
bothers me that you shut down any conversation about it when you
are around. Can you try to at least pretend to be interested or
if not excuse yourself to a different group if you really don't
like the conversation? I don't think it is fair to the rest of
us to be on eggshells around you about this topic."
....
[/quote]
I think this is perfectly reasonable, especially if you're close
friends.
My husband and I had always planned and saved to retire young
and I met a woman on a cruise whose husband retired around 50
while she continued to work. She loved her job and didn't feel
ready to retire young with him. I sat with her in the spa and
she outlined what day to day life looked like for them and
encouraged me around how to navigate it. My husband retired a
couple years ago at 51 and I'm still working. That cruise ship
conversation was really enlightening and helped me wrap my brain
around the day in and day out process and gave me permission to
buck some societal norms. (At least for my area.)
I'm going to predict that Sue could get worse, not better, when
you do retire so it's best to address this early in an attempt
to quell that.
#Post#: 43821--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Victoria Date: December 16, 2019, 10:07 am
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I agree with PVZFan with the added nuance that the circumstances
in which you're bringing it up make a difference. A happy hour
with a small group of friends is a little different than a
larger hiking group where conversation is dynamic and
groupings/topics are constantly shifting around. It would be
kind not to make Sue a "captive audience" too much when there's
only a few of you and she can't escape or easily bring up
something else, but it's her burden in a larger group and a
group where you're not in fixed positions to mingle with people
who may be talking about something more palatable. I would also
add that in any event Sue shouldn't be attempting to change the
subject by bashing what you choose to talk about and being
dismissive of your choices. I can't imagine rolling my eyes and
saying "Ugh, I hate kids. Let's talk about something else" if
someone was trying to show me some baby photos!
#Post#: 43822--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Jem Date: December 16, 2019, 10:16 am
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[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1445.msg43812#msg43812
date=1576506616]
I want to say something to Sue. I'm thinking along the lines of
"Sue, I understand you are disappointed that you won't be
retiring in the same timeframe as some of your peers. But it
bothers me that you shut down any conversation about it when you
are around. Can you try to at least pretend to be interested or
if not excuse yourself to a different group if you really don't
like the conversation? I don't think it is fair to the rest of
us to be on eggshells around you about this topic."
Or should I be more sensitive and make sure to not bring up the
subject when she is around? In my mind, Sue made a choice she
was well aware would change her path in life. Should our
conversations be stymied because of her choice?
[/quote]
I think that you should be able to feel comfortable talking
about whatever is important to you, so I do not think your
conversations should by stymied because of Sue's choices and
insecurities. I probably would not proactively make the
statement you proposed (I would wait until the next time Sue
complained about retirement discussion) but I think it is
appropriate to say. It could be that your relationship with Sue
will change going forward if she feels she does not have enough
in common with friends who are retiring before she does.
#Post#: 43830--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Rose Red Date: December 16, 2019, 1:24 pm
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I think it's a kindness not to talk about retirement in a group
of three so Sue can also participate.* But I also think it's up
to Sue to walk away to join another discussion when there's 10
or more people.
*This applies to any topic in a small group.
#Post#: 43837--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Jem Date: December 16, 2019, 1:43 pm
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[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1445.msg43830#msg43830
date=1576524291]
I think it's a kindness not to talk about retirement in a group
of three so Sue can also participate.* But I also think it's up
to Sue to walk away to join another discussion when there's 10
or more people.
*This applies to any topic in a small group.
[/quote]
I see what you are saying, but on some level I think Sue (or
anyone) should be able to participate in conversations that do
not directly involve them. I care about what is happening in my
friends lives, so, for example, conversations might be focused
on someone's upcoming marriage, or new baby, or new job, or
_____ even though these things are not things happening in my
life.
#Post#: 43838--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Rose Red Date: December 16, 2019, 1:55 pm
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[quote author=Jem link=topic=1445.msg43837#msg43837
date=1576525426]
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1445.msg43830#msg43830
date=1576524291]
I think it's a kindness not to talk about retirement in a group
of three so Sue can also participate.* But I also think it's up
to Sue to walk away to join another discussion when there's 10
or more people.
*This applies to any topic in a small group.
[/quote]
I see what you are saying, but on some level I think Sue (or
anyone) should be able to participate in conversations that do
not directly involve them. I care about what is happening in my
friends lives, so, for example, conversations might be focused
on someone's upcoming marriage, or new baby, or new job, or
_____ even though these things are not things happening in my
life.
[/quote]
Yes, but retirement seems to be a trigger for Sue.
Babies bore me but I can tolerate it. But what if there's a
reason that talking about babies distress me? It would be kinder
for friends to avoid that topic when in a group of three. I know
we can't avoid all triggering topics in life...but in a group of
three friends?
#Post#: 43841--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Gellchom Date: December 16, 2019, 2:08 pm
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[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1445.msg43838#msg43838
date=1576526107]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1445.msg43837#msg43837
date=1576525426]
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1445.msg43830#msg43830
date=1576524291]
I think it's a kindness not to talk about retirement in a group
of three so Sue can also participate.* But I also think it's up
to Sue to walk away to join another discussion when there's 10
or more people.
*This applies to any topic in a small group.
[/quote]
I see what you are saying, but on some level I think Sue (or
anyone) should be able to participate in conversations that do
not directly involve them. I care about what is happening in my
friends lives, so, for example, conversations might be focused
on someone's upcoming marriage, or new baby, or new job, or
_____ even though these things are not things happening in my
life.
[/quote]
Yes, but retirement seems to be a trigger for Sue.
Babies bore me but I can tolerate it. But what if there's a
reason that talking about babies distress me? It would be kinder
for friends to avoid that topic when in a group of three. I know
we can't avoid all triggering topics in life...but in a group of
three friends?
[/quote]
I agree with all of this. It's a balancing act.
I thought of the baby analogy, too. Not so much for people who
just don't like or want kids, but say you had a friend you know
was struggling with infertility or whose only child has a
disability that makes them unable to do the things being
discussed, or even whose child had died. I think we'd all
probably try to be sensitive about saving children-talk to
another time when they aren't there, especially in a small
group.
At the same time, in a big setting where people are moving in
and out of conversations, I wouldn't say everyone should
suddenly freeze when that friend wanders over -- that would
probably just make it worse.
I get it how Sue feels. And I think her friends might try to be
sensitive to that, although not to the point of references to
retirement being a taboo. Like, I'd skip it as a general topic
in a small group, but if someone just bought a retirement home
or had a retirement party, there's no reason not to mention it
-- the same as you wouldn't keep a pregnancy secret from an
infertile friend, but you wouldn't go on and on about baby
stuff, either, or you wouldn't lie about your upcoming dream
trip to someone who can't afford it, but you wouldn't ask them
to help you plan your travel wardrobe or insist that they look
at all your photos, either.
And Sue needs to keep her feelings to herself more, too. It's
fine for her to explain how retirement talk makes her feel and
to ask that it not be the primary topic all the time, but not to
make people feel bad every time it's mentioned. Everybody has a
topic or two like that, and we all need to learn how to handle
it maturely. For all we know, back a few years, one of Sue's
friends might have loved to be able to go back to school and
change careers and felt the same way when Sue talked about doing
it.
#Post#: 43846--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Lula Date: December 16, 2019, 2:12 pm
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I agree with Rose Red. Knowingly, needlessly putting someone in
a painful situation from which they have no socially graceful
escape is cruel.
#Post#: 43849--------------------------------------------------
Re: But I want to talk about it!
By: Hmmm Date: December 16, 2019, 2:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lula link=topic=1445.msg43846#msg43846
date=1576527175]
I agree with Rose Red. Knowingly, needlessly putting someone in
a painful situation from which they have no socially graceful
escape is cruel.
[/quote]
But is it really cruel in this situation?
With a situation like where someone can't conceive, I agree that
is is a trigger and pregnancy or babies is best to avoid if you
know it's a trigger. But in Sue's case, she knowingly made a
life choice to do something she really enjoys and made the
trade-off that she won't be able to retire in the standard time
frame.
It's sort of like someone choosing to spend a lot of money on a
home and neighborhood with lots of amenities while friends have
more modest dwellings but travel. Should neither group get to
talk about their home or their travels because the other's are
envious?
I personally would love to travel more. But we made the decision
to fully fund our kids' university education. Yes, at times I'm
green with envy listening to their trips or planned trips and
want to tell my kids to fund their own darn educations like most
others, but I'd never ask them to not speak about them around
me.
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1445.msg43830#msg43830
date=1576524291]
I think it's a kindness not to talk about retirement in a group
of three so Sue can also participate.* But I also think it's up
to Sue to walk away to join another discussion when there's 10
or more people.
*This applies to any topic in a small group.
[/quote]
Just a note that the happy hour was a group of 6, with 5 of us
enjoying chatting about retirement (one will be retiring in
January). But even if she isn't actively planning to retire, she
can still participate in the conversation about other's plans. I
mean a full hour of it would be a bit much, but a 15 to 20 min
conversation should be bearable. Then just gently steer the
chatter... it's pretty easy to move a conversation from someone
talking about buying a farm to a discussion about what would be
missed by leaving a large city. "Rosie, I'm sure the farm is
lovely, but I'm having a hard time imagining you living more
than a 15 minute drive from Nordstroms." and suddenly the
conversation is on shopping. Or isn't UberPretty national park
in that area? Have you guys been hiking up there? and now we
have a whole new conversation.
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