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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 43098--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Hmmm Date: December 3, 2019, 3:54 pm
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[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1418.msg43083#msg43083
date=1575397437]
[quote]I think the mom (and the others who rejected the brunch
idea) were kind-of rude. If it were me, I would go to the
cousins and not do the mom's lunch at all. There is plenty of
time to spend with the mom while staying at her house, and I
would want to celebrate with PEOPLE not based on FOOD.[/quote]
I still maintain that there's a great deal more to Mom's
attitude than the FOOD. To a great many people the Christmas
meal, like a birthday cake, is not just 'FOOD': it's a ritual
symbol, and partaking of it together at table is a kind of
communion. I'm not a stickler for
exactly-the-same-menu-every-year myself, but even so I'm not
sure that I would consider that I'd had a 'Christmas meal' after
brunch with scrambled eggs and French toast: the more so as one
generally doesn't all sit down to a brunch in quite the same way
as one does to Christmas dinner. I think that Mom, and all the
others who rejected the brunch idea, were perfectly justified.
If Will and Cathy were my cousins, I think I would feel that
they had hijacked the date to host a housewarming instead. And
as they didn't apparently consult any of their relations, but
just volunteered to 'host Christmas lunch' and only later
unilaterally declared that it was going to be a quite different
kind of occasion from what anyone expected, I'd say the rudeness
was all on their side.
[/quote]
But that's like saying it's not a "real" birthday party unless
there is a cake. But what if I want to have a ice cream sundae
buffet? Does that mean my bday party is less of a real party?
And if they'd never done a Christmas brunch, how do they know
they wouldn't enjoy the change? I just see it as pretty unfair
to the younger generation to discount their suggestion without
even trying it out for one year.
[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1418.msg43089#msg43089
date=1575401130]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1418.msg43079#msg43079
date=1575392198]
I also agree. I think the mom (and the others who rejected the
brunch idea) were kind-of rude. If it were me, I would go to the
cousins and not do the mom's lunch at all. There is plenty of
time to spend with the mom while staying at her house, and I
would want to celebrate with PEOPLE not based on FOOD.
[/quote]
I don't know why a lot of people are acting like it was the
*mom* who planned her lunch the same time as Cathy and Will's
event just because of food. She didn't!
The mom didn't reject the brunch idea. She was going to attend
and then made plans for the rest of the day with neighbors. She
was probably told the time frame of the brunch and made plans
accordingly for after. It was the cousins who changed their
plans. Is the mom suppose to cancel on the neighbors? Now
*that's* rude.
[/quote]
My objection is that she took it upon herself to schedule an
event that would cause her DD to be rushed away from the
original planned brunch without consulting her. If she had asked
her DD about how she felt about leaving the brunch fairly
quickly and going home to host a formal lunch for neighbors and
DD was ok with it, then I wouldn't' see a problem. But she
passed judgement on the offered style of hosting and made a
unilateral decision to host her own.
#Post#: 43101--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: TootsNYC Date: December 3, 2019, 4:30 pm
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Maybe she didn't think her daughter needed to attend the later
luncheon, that only she would need to leave at a specific time.
That her daughter could come for dessert, or just come back to
the house when Will and Cathy's gathering was over.
#Post#: 43116--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Rose Red Date: December 3, 2019, 7:59 pm
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Who said anything about rushing? We don't know the timeframe of
the original brunch or the traditional lunch. The OP didn't seem
to object the original plans. Thanksgiving and Christmas "lunch"
or "dinner" is one of those strange things that can be anywhere
between noon and 5pm. Who has dinner at 2pm except on holidays?
The rest of the family may not even know about the mom's lunch
so how can she be sending out a message of disapproval? Like a
PP said, It seems like it was everyone else expressing
disapproval to the point of Will and Cathy buckling under and
changed their plans. It wasn't the mom who forced them to
change. She was willing to accept brunch and made the best of it
by planning her own non- conflicting plans for after.
#Post#: 43135--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Lkdrymom Date: December 4, 2019, 6:11 am
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If I understand correctly, everyone in the family takes turns
hosting. Unless the time change made it difficult for most
people to attend I think it was very rude to complain about what
Will and Cathy had planned. Would the elders in this family
like it if someone tried to dictate how they hosted in their own
home? My guess would be no.
#Post#: 43140--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Hmmm Date: December 4, 2019, 9:30 am
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[quote author=Rose Red link=topic=1418.msg43116#msg43116
date=1575424751]
Who said anything about rushing? We don't know the timeframe of
the original brunch or the traditional lunch. The OP didn't seem
to object the original plans. Thanksgiving and Christmas "lunch"
or "dinner" is one of those strange things that can be anywhere
between noon and 5pm. Who has dinner at 2pm except on holidays?
The rest of the family may not even know about the mom's lunch
so how can she be sending out a message of disapproval? Like a
PP said, It seems like it was everyone else expressing
disapproval to the point of Will and Cathy buckling under and
changed their plans. It wasn't the mom who forced them to
change. She was willing to accept brunch and made the best of it
by planning her own non- conflicting plans for after.
[/quote]
From Post 10
And yes, her lunch is intended to be at lunchtime (eg around
1pm).
Will and Cathy live a 20 minute drive away
I know if I'm serving a traditional Christmas lunch, I would
need to be home by at least noon, so would have to leave brunch
by 11:30. So leaving home by 9/9:30 to make it to a 9:30 or 10am
brunch and then leaving there by 11:30 and hurrying to prep for
a 1pm lunch is a lot of Christmas morning rushing around to me.
#Post#: 43159--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Gellchom Date: December 4, 2019, 1:29 pm
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I don't think it's accurate or fair to frame this as Mom valuing
certain foods or arrangements over people.
That would make sense if we were talking about her feeling like
"it just isn't Christmas" without a certain recipe of cranberry
sauce or a specific decoration. But an open house brunch is
very different from a holiday dinner, not just in food.
This is a rare occasion where I disagree with Hmmm!
[quote]But that's like saying it's not a "real" birthday party
unless there is a cake. But what if I want to have a ice cream
sundae buffet? Does that mean my bday party is less of a real
party?[/quote]
I don't think it's a parallel example. Your birthday party is
for YOUR birthday. Your preferences are paramount. A holiday
is not the same.
People are entitled to celebrate any way they want, or not at
all. If you want a casual eggs and waffles brunch instead of a
Christmas dinner, that's just fine. I have a friend who always
goes with her daughter for dim sum in a restaurant instead of a
turkey dinner for Thanksgiving. But I don't blame a guest for
feeling like they are missing something special and important,
not just a particular menu, if they don't want to give up their
traditional holiday plans for that, even if they would love it
some other time.
I appreciate the dilemma for the daughter. But that doesn't
mean that her mom did anything wrong, selfish, or rude.
In my opinion, there is no clear answer for what the daughter
ought to do. It might help to consider all the possibilities
and see how each one makes her feel. If she finds herself
feeling defensive about a choice to herself or some imaginary
listener, it's probably not one she will be comfortable living
with. Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the thing we prefer
to do -- but sometimes it is, and that well may be the case
here. I think that only she can say.
#Post#: 43187--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Aleko Date: December 4, 2019, 4:49 pm
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[quote] Unless the time change made it difficult for most people
to attend I think it was very rude to complain about what Will
and Cathy had planned. Would the elders in this family like it
if someone tried to dictate how they hosted in their own home?
My guess would be no.[/quote]
But 'dictating how they host in their own home' is not what
anyone is doing. They are objecting to the blatant
bait-and-switch that Will and Cathy pulled on the whole family.
If, when the family was discussing 'who will host the usual
Christmas lunch for the extended family this year?' they had
said 'Let's do something different this year! Why don't you all
come to our place on Christmas Day and we'll give you a brunch
of scrambled eggs, mushrooms and French Toast!' that would have
been fair enough: though, given that a number of the relatives
dislike the idea, it's clear that the answer would have been
'Thanks but no thanks'. That's not 'dictating'. But offering one
thing and then, when everyone is committed to it, substituting
something radically different - now that is rude.
#Post#: 43206--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Selfie Date: December 4, 2019, 10:27 pm
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Is it too late to have the cousins do a brunch the day after
Christmas? Or drinks and turkey sandwiches on Christmas night?
If you do go out try to convince your Mom to leave all the
dishes and cleanup until you get home and you do the honors when
you get there. And then sit down with your Mom with pie to hear
her tell about other Christmas times.
#Post#: 43213--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Aleko Date: December 5, 2019, 4:34 am
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[quote]People are entitled to celebrate any way they want, or
not at all. If you want a casual eggs and waffles brunch
instead of a Christmas dinner, that's just fine. I have a
friend who always goes with her daughter for dim sum in a
restaurant instead of a turkey dinner for Thanksgiving. But I
don't blame a guest for feeling like they are missing something
special and important, not just a particular menu, if they don't
want to give up their traditional holiday plans for that, even
if they would love it some other time. [/quote]
I have a friend who when single lived for many years in south
London a couple of streets away from her widowed mother. On
Christmas Day, if the weather was good, their ritual was to take
a walk over Tooting Common, enjoying the nature, to a pub on the
other side where they would sit with a pint and bag of crisps
celebrating the fact that they were possibly the only women of
turkey-roasting age in Tooting who had the leisure to go to a
pub - there were never any other adult women there - then back
again to her place where a nice lasagne or something else of a
similarly undemanding nature was keeping hot in the oven for
their dinner. It suited them: but if they had been thoughtless
enough to invite anyone else to 'Come and have Christmas dinner
with us!' without explaining what that was going to consist of,
that person would have had a right to feel somewhat misled, not
to say short-changed.
#Post#: 43239--------------------------------------------------
Re: Competing Christmas lunches! Which to attend?
By: Gellchom Date: December 5, 2019, 1:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1418.msg43187#msg43187
date=1575499786]
[quote] Unless the time change made it difficult for most people
to attend I think it was very rude to complain about what Will
and Cathy had planned. Would the elders in this family like it
if someone tried to dictate how they hosted in their own home?
My guess would be no.[/quote]
But 'dictating how they host in their own home' is not what
anyone is doing. They are objecting to the blatant
bait-and-switch that Will and Cathy pulled on the whole family.
If, when the family was discussing 'who will host the usual
Christmas lunch for the extended family this year?' they had
said 'Let's do something different this year! Why don't you all
come to our place on Christmas Day and we'll give you a brunch
of scrambled eggs, mushrooms and French Toast!' that would have
been fair enough: though, given that a number of the relatives
dislike the idea, it's clear that the answer would have been
'Thanks but no thanks'. That's not 'dictating'. But offering one
thing and then, when everyone is committed to it, substituting
something radically different - now that is rude.
[/quote]
Well put. Here is what the OP put in the first post (emphasis
added):
[quote]My extended family always gets together for Christmas
lunch, with each family unit taking turns to host. Lunch is
always very traditional - turkey, roast potatoes, vegetables,
followed by pudding and trifle, etc. Everyone brings a dish, but
the hosts always do the main dish, which is the turkey.
This year, my cousin "Will" and his new wife "Cathy" volunteered
to host (they've recently bought a new house). However, when
they sent around the email invitation, they invited everyone for
"Christmas Brunch", and announced that they'd be serving
scrambled eggs, mushrooms and French Toast![/quote]
Given those facts, I can certainly understand why Mom decided to
host the traditional Christmas lunch the family was apparently
expecting. In fact, I think it was nice of her to do so in
addition to, and not at the same time as, Will and Cathy's
brunch, instead of saying, "Your brunch sounds lovely, and we'd
love to do it some other time. But that's not what we all
expected when we accepted your offer to host this year; please
either do it our traditional way, or let someone else do it."
Even that would not have been so bad, in my opinion. It's not
just Will and Cathy's party; it's the family's Christmas.
That said, I also think it would have been okay for Will and
Cathy to suggest a brunch instead of the usual lunch; if others
liked the idea, then fine. But I agree that offering to host the
annual lunch and then just announcing a major change like that
was indeed a bait and switch with regard to this family's
holiday tradition.
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