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#Post#: 42574--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Hello Ducky Date: November 23, 2019, 9:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=wolfie link=topic=1407.msg42495#msg42495
date=1574456090]
[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1407.msg42488#msg42488
date=1574451692]
[quote]I don't see this as kicking so much as maintaining the
status quo. She hasn't gone to christmas for a while.[/quote]
That's absolutely not true. The status quo has been shattered:
in the past MIL spent Christmas Day with her husband (Tom's
dad), mother (Tom's grandmother) and daughter (Tom's sister).
Her husband died last year, so presumably last Christmas she was
with her daughter and her mother. Now her mother is dead and her
daughter is overseas, so if she isn't invited by her son and DIL
she will be alone. There's no way one can argue 'why should we
invite her? We didn't invite her before, so why now?'.
[/quote]
But nothing has changed in the relationship between the MIL and
DIL. So that brings the idea of why did MIL become a saint
because she is now suffering hardship. We don't know how bad
MIL is. If it really is just an annoyance or if she is toxic.
Most people assume it is just an annoyance because the idea of
toxic family is out of their experience. But if MIL is toxic
then why should DIL have to deal with it just because her FIL
died? it doesn't make the MIL less toxic. And if the husband
wants to do this then maybe he should step up and start doing
the work so that his wife doesn't have to forgo a good christmas
to make everyone else happy.
[/quote]
Unsaintly people aren't exempt from hardship nor are they less
deserving of compassion. How horrible the world would be if
people only showed compassion to others they felt deserved it!
#Post#: 42589--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Lkdrymom Date: November 24, 2019, 12:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=wolfie link=topic=1407.msg42417#msg42417
date=1574355271]
[quote author=NyaChan link=topic=1407.msg42413#msg42413
date=1574352023]
This is more of a “how I look at life response” than a direct
opinion -
Why does someone become a saint/helpless victim in our eyes the
second something bad happens to them? If you treat everyone
around you badly and are unpleasant on a daily basis, I think it
is a bit rich to expect everyone to rally around the second you
realize you might need them. I think sue should invite her, but
I don’t for a second think of her badly for hesitating or not
wanting to do it. MIL has clearly banked little or no goodwill
with the people around her. It shouldn’t be a surprise to
anyone that people don’t want to subject themselves to her bad
behavior. Would I suck it up this once and give her a chance to
be a good guest? Yes. But it’s not some moral failing to not
want to be around people who don’t have much regard for you even
if they have suffered a blow.
[/quote]
exactly - you reap what you sow. If you are a bitch in good
times then you can't expect people to rally around you in bad
times.
[/quote]
I agree with both of you. I do think Sue needs to give her MIL a
second chance, but she shouldn't tolerate any critical comments
either. I spend a lot of time on a toxic family forum. It is
amazing how outsiders with decent family members cannot fathom
someone not wanting to be around a parent or sibling.
#Post#: 42593--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Gellchom Date: November 24, 2019, 1:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lkdrymom link=topic=1407.msg42589#msg42589
date=1574618477]
[quote author=wolfie link=topic=1407.msg42417#msg42417
date=1574355271]
[quote author=NyaChan link=topic=1407.msg42413#msg42413
date=1574352023]
This is more of a “how I look at life response” than a direct
opinion -
Why does someone become a saint/helpless victim in our eyes the
second something bad happens to them? If you treat everyone
around you badly and are unpleasant on a daily basis, I think it
is a bit rich to expect everyone to rally around the second you
realize you might need them. I think sue should invite her, but
I don’t for a second think of her badly for hesitating or not
wanting to do it. MIL has clearly banked little or no goodwill
with the people around her. It shouldn’t be a surprise to
anyone that people don’t want to subject themselves to her bad
behavior. Would I suck it up this once and give her a chance to
be a good guest? Yes. But it’s not some moral failing to not
want to be around people who don’t have much regard for you even
if they have suffered a blow.
[/quote]
exactly - you reap what you sow. If you are a bitch in good
times then you can't expect people to rally around you in bad
times.
[/quote]
I agree with both of you. I do think Sue needs to give her MIL a
second chance, but she shouldn't tolerate any critical comments
either. I spend a lot of time on a toxic family forum. It is
amazing how outsiders with decent family members cannot fathom
someone not wanting to be around a parent or sibling.
[/quote]
But what does “she shouldn’t tolerate any critical comments”
mean? Banishment? Discussing it? Retaliation? Leaving the
room unobtrusively? There’s quite a range of possibilities.
And any critical comments? Even one? How bad do they have to
be — I sure know that unsolicited advice can feel like a
criticism, but depending upon what “not tolerate” means, it
could be way disproportionate. Apply the Favorite Aunt test.
As to toxicity, I won’t deny I might be slower to see it than
others. But Tom doesn’t seem to feel his mom is toxic or doesn’t
want to be around her.
Look, no one is saying that Sue’s feelings don’t count and that
she has no right to protect herself. But that should not be the
only thing that counts.
#Post#: 42600--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Sycorax Date: November 24, 2019, 4:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
To me, it feels unkind to exclude the MIL this year. If it
really does go badly this time, what about helping MIL find
something else for next year? A friend, a fun activity?
#Post#: 42613--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: LifeOnPluto Date: November 25, 2019, 5:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Wow, five pages! i've been away for a few days, so haven't been
able to respond until now.
Some more info (if it makes any difference): I've only met Sue's
MIL on a couple of occasions, but based on those meetings and
from what Sue tells me, she (the MIL) doesn't seem to be the "I
enjoy saying nasty things to deliberately make people miserable"
type. Rather, she's the more "I have no brain to mouth filter,
and say whatever opinion comes to mind - but it's nothing
personal!" type.
Sue's parents have always been super protective of her. They've
always had the "no one is good enough for our little girl"
mentality, so I suspect they may have been getting in her ear
about how she (Sue) shouldn't put up with any "disrespect" from
her MIL, etc. Sue is REALLY close to her parents (as in, pretty
much sees them every single day), so I think there's a strong
element of not wanting to disappoint them or put them in an
uncomfortable position, etc.
A few posters have asked whether Sue has always been like this
(and a couple of you implied that you'd stop being friends with
someone like this). Look - I totally get that. But the fact is,
Sue and I have been friends for 15 years, and she hasn't always
been like this. She's only really displayed self-centered
behaviour since Billy was born. It's funny - people generally
say how having kids makes you a better person. More selfless,
more mature, more empathetic, more engaged with the community
around you, etc. I've found for Sue, it's been the exact
opposite. It's like once she became a mum, a switch was flipped
in her head. Sometimes it feels like she has become more
selfish, less mature, and less empathetic - to anyone who isn't
her son. And she used to socialise with a wide range of people
in the community through her job and volunteer work. Now she
mostly hangs out with other mums. (Fun fact, she once told me
that I couldn't possibly understand the main character's
motivations in "The Handmaid's Tale", because I'm not a mother
myself!).
I haven't told her any of this, as I suspect it would simply
tank our friendship. I'm hoping this is just a phase that will
pass. I have however, encouraged her to invite her MIL at some
point on Christmas Day, and it looks like they will invite her
over for dinner in the evening.
#Post#: 42614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Lkdrymom Date: November 25, 2019, 6:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1407.msg42593#msg42593
date=1574623550]
[quote author=Lkdrymom link=topic=1407.msg42589#msg42589
date=1574618477]
[quote author=wolfie link=topic=1407.msg42417#msg42417
date=1574355271]
[quote author=NyaChan link=topic=1407.msg42413#msg42413
date=1574352023]
This is more of a “how I look at life response” than a direct
opinion -
Why does someone become a saint/helpless victim in our eyes the
second something bad happens to them? If you treat everyone
around you badly and are unpleasant on a daily basis, I think it
is a bit rich to expect everyone to rally around the second you
realize you might need them. I think sue should invite her, but
I don’t for a second think of her badly for hesitating or not
wanting to do it. MIL has clearly banked little or no goodwill
with the people around her. It shouldn’t be a surprise to
anyone that people don’t want to subject themselves to her bad
behavior. Would I suck it up this once and give her a chance to
be a good guest? Yes. But it’s not some moral failing to not
want to be around people who don’t have much regard for you even
if they have suffered a blow.
[/quote]
exactly - you reap what you sow. If you are a bitch in good
times then you can't expect people to rally around you in bad
times.
[/quote]
I agree with both of you. I do think Sue needs to give her MIL a
second chance, but she shouldn't tolerate any critical comments
either. I spend a lot of time on a toxic family forum. It is
amazing how outsiders with decent family members cannot fathom
someone not wanting to be around a parent or sibling.
[/quote]
But what does “she shouldn’t tolerate any critical comments”
mean? Banishment? Discussing it? Retaliation? Leaving the
room unobtrusively? There’s quite a range of possibilities.
And any critical comments? Even one? How bad do they have to
be — I sure know that unsolicited advice can feel like a
criticism, but depending upon what “not tolerate” means, it
could be way disproportionate. Apply the Favorite Aunt test.
As to toxicity, I won’t deny I might be slower to see it than
others. But Tom doesn’t seem to feel his mom is toxic or doesn’t
want to be around her.
Look, no one is saying that Sue’s feelings don’t count and that
she has no right to protect herself. But that should not be the
only thing that counts.
[/quote]
With the update from the OP I do have a bit more sympathy for
the MIL however I still see Sue's side of it. On a forum I am
on people often complain about how nice and in law is when seen
by the public and truly horrendous behind closed doors. The
comments Sue has mentioned seem innocent enough but there is
such a thing as death by a thousand paper cut and after awhile
you have had enough. Based on the info we have I do think MIL
should be included this year. I thought she normally spent
Christmas with her daughter who was out of town this year so
this may be the only time Sue has to compromise. I do stand by
my comment that Sue does not have to tolerate criticism in her
own home and yes even one comment needs to be addressed. No one
has to go from 0 to banishment over one comment but maybe point
out to MIL that her comment was unkind or hurtful would be a
start. Often people who are being hurt say nothing and the
person being unkind has no idea they are being unkind as those
type of comments are acceptable in their circle.
#Post#: 42618--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Aleko Date: November 25, 2019, 7:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]I do stand by my comment that Sue does not have to
tolerate criticism in her own home and yes even one comment
needs to be addressed. [/quote]
I don't think that's realistic. I don't think any of us is
exempt from criticism, in our own homes or out of them: and if
every tactless or unconsidered remark were to be treated as a
felony, I don't know any family, no matter how affectionate,
that could count on spending a day together without a dust-up!
[quote]No one has to go from 0 to banishment over one comment
but maybe point out to MIL that her comment was unkind or
hurtful would be a start. [/quote]
From LoP's update, it sounds as though Sue's parents are
contributing just as much to the problem, if not more. And any
such 'pointing out' carries the risk that they will pile in on
Sue's side againdst her, and then you'll have a full-blown row
over the dinner table. I reckon that each spouse needs to have a
firm talk with their respective parents beforehand, and during
the event needs to take on responsibility for kindly-but-firmly
squelching any untoward remark by their own parent, instantly -
Tom is not to rebuke Sue's parents, nor Sue her MIL.
[quote]Often people who are being hurt say nothing and the
person being unkind has no idea they are being unkind as those
type of comments are acceptable in their circle.[/quote]
Too true! My mother came from a family of terrifyingly frank
Quakers, who simply didn't know how to sugar-coat what they saw
as the truth and didn't expect, much less want anyone to
sugar-coat anything back to them. Despite our best efforts to
practise sugar-coating, my brothers and I are not-infrequently
surprised and mortified to be told we've left bootprints on
someone.
#Post#: 42620--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Hmmm Date: November 25, 2019, 8:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lkdrymom link=topic=1407.msg42614#msg42614
date=1574683220]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1407.msg42593#msg42593
date=1574623550]
[quote author=Lkdrymom link=topic=1407.msg42589#msg42589
date=1574618477]
[quote author=wolfie link=topic=1407.msg42417#msg42417
date=1574355271]
[quote author=NyaChan link=topic=1407.msg42413#msg42413
date=1574352023]
This is more of a “how I look at life response” than a direct
opinion -
Why does someone become a saint/helpless victim in our eyes the
second something bad happens to them? If you treat everyone
around you badly and are unpleasant on a daily basis, I think it
is a bit rich to expect everyone to rally around the second you
realize you might need them. I think sue should invite her, but
I don’t for a second think of her badly for hesitating or not
wanting to do it. MIL has clearly banked little or no goodwill
with the people around her. It shouldn’t be a surprise to
anyone that people don’t want to subject themselves to her bad
behavior. Would I suck it up this once and give her a chance to
be a good guest? Yes. But it’s not some moral failing to not
want to be around people who don’t have much regard for you even
if they have suffered a blow.
[/quote]
exactly - you reap what you sow. If you are a bitch in good
times then you can't expect people to rally around you in bad
times.
[/quote]
I agree with both of you. I do think Sue needs to give her MIL a
second chance, but she shouldn't tolerate any critical comments
either. I spend a lot of time on a toxic family forum. It is
amazing how outsiders with decent family members cannot fathom
someone not wanting to be around a parent or sibling.
[/quote]
But what does “she shouldn’t tolerate any critical comments”
mean? Banishment? Discussing it? Retaliation? Leaving the
room unobtrusively? There’s quite a range of possibilities.
And any critical comments? Even one? How bad do they have to
be — I sure know that unsolicited advice can feel like a
criticism, but depending upon what “not tolerate” means, it
could be way disproportionate. Apply the Favorite Aunt test.
As to toxicity, I won’t deny I might be slower to see it than
others. But Tom doesn’t seem to feel his mom is toxic or doesn’t
want to be around her.
Look, no one is saying that Sue’s feelings don’t count and that
she has no right to protect herself. But that should not be the
only thing that counts.
[/quote]
With the update from the OP I do have a bit more sympathy for
the MIL however I still see Sue's side of it. On a forum I am
on people often complain about how nice and in law is when seen
by the public and truly horrendous behind closed doors. The
comments Sue has mentioned seem innocent enough but there is
such a thing as death by a thousand paper cut and after awhile
you have had enough. Based on the info we have I do think MIL
should be included this year. I thought she normally spent
Christmas with her daughter who was out of town this year so
this may be the only time Sue has to compromise. I do stand by
my comment that Sue does not have to tolerate criticism in her
own home and yes even one comment needs to be addressed. No one
has to go from 0 to banishment over one comment but maybe point
out to MIL that her comment was unkind or hurtful would be a
start. Often people who are being hurt say nothing and the
person being unkind has no idea they are being unkind as those
type of comments are acceptable in their circle.
[/quote]
I find this stance extremely over-reactionary. Or maybe it is
how you are defining "criticism". The two example's given was
more conversational than direct criticism. Criticism of Sue
would be "I think you are wrong in not giving solid foods at 3
months". What I hear in your stance is that as a MIL, she is not
allowed to share an opinion.
If as a couple, Sue & Tom have agreed to but that boundary on
both sets of parents, I think it is fine. But from what has been
presented here, it really sounds like Sue just doesn't want her
MIL giving opinions.
With the last update, Sue comes across to me as someone who does
not like her MIL and is using any excuse to distance her husband
from his family of origin. Her son and her husband are the ones
she is hurting most.
#Post#: 42628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: wolfie Date: November 25, 2019, 9:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1407.msg42564#msg42564
date=1574552498]
[quote author=OnyxBird link=topic=1407.msg42559#msg42559
date=1574547790]
[quote author=PVZFan link=topic=1407.msg42502#msg42502
date=1574459374]
[quote author=wolfie link=topic=1407.msg42495#msg42495
date=1574456090]
[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1407.msg42488#msg42488
date=1574451692]
[quote]I don't see this as kicking so much as maintaining the
status quo. She hasn't gone to christmas for a while.[/quote]
That's absolutely not true. The status quo has been shattered:
in the past MIL spent Christmas Day with her husband (Tom's
dad), mother (Tom's grandmother) and daughter (Tom's sister).
Her husband died last year, so presumably last Christmas she was
with her daughter and her mother. Now her mother is dead and her
daughter is overseas, so if she isn't invited by her son and DIL
she will be alone. There's no way one can argue 'why should we
invite her? We didn't invite her before, so why now?'.
[/quote]
But nothing has changed in the relationship between the MIL and
DIL. So that brings the idea of why did MIL become a saint
because she is now suffering hardship. We don't know how bad
MIL is. If it really is just an annoyance or if she is toxic.
Most people assume it is just an annoyance because the idea of
toxic family is out of their experience. But if MIL is toxic
then why should DIL have to deal with it just because her FIL
died? it doesn't make the MIL less toxic. And if the husband
wants to do this then maybe he should step up and start doing
the work so that his wife doesn't have to forgo a good christmas
to make everyone else happy.
[/quote]
Except the actual examples, solid foods at 3 months and what age
to potty train, don't rise to the level of toxicity. I assume
people lead with their best examples. So, if Sue was presenting
this to the OP and arguing her case she's going to present her
strongest evidence in her "opening argument." That's why the
majority of us are landing at "She might be annoying, but it's
significantly lacking in compassion and common decency if she's
not invited."
Of course there are days that we should all get to enjoy
ourselves to and, if Sue has to "take one for the team" here,
surely she can have a lovely brunch or dinner out with Tom to
make up for it? (Or whatever else she'd like to do?)
Frankly, saying to Tom, "I'm doing this because I love you and
know this is important to you, I don't really feel like," builds
up the marital relationship and Sue's personal capital in the
relationship. It could be her entire Christmas gift to Tom! That
she can't do this for her MIL who has suffered significant loss
this year, makes me wonder about her level of compassion. That
she, further, just can't do this for her husband, really makes
me wonder about her level of egotism.
Personally, I'm not surprised that her parents would support her
perspective because my theory is the Sue apple didn't fall far
from the tree.
No one's saying MIL is a saint, we're saying she's a older lady
who's experienced significant loss and is worthy of a little
dignity and compassion. If that compassion includes a Christmas
lunch, then it's a Christmas lunch, but we're still not sure she
wants that. What we do know is that her son, who has also
suffered loss, wants her there. All of that should be good
enough for Sue to issue the invitation.
[/quote]
I agree that nothing described in the OP clearly indicates
toxicity, so we should not assume that MIL is toxic. However, I
don't think it's entirely fair to assume the absence of toxicity
based on the post and judge Sue on that basis, for two main
reasons:
1) We are hearing this second-hand, through LifeOnPluto. While
I'm sure LifeOnPluto tried to accurately communicate the
situation as she remembers Sue describing it, it is very easy
for things to get lost in communication, especially when talking
about subjective interpersonal interactions. If Sue herself was
posting, she might have described the incidents differently,
with more detail or different emphasis, or she might have
offered clarification when she saw how people were interpreting
the description. She can't provide clarification one way or the
other, because she is not here.
2) I know from personal experience that people don't always lead
with the "best examples" to make their listener understand toxic
behavior. I certainly didn't when I was dealing with a toxic
boss, and I have similarly heard my mother struggle to convey
her relationship with my toxic grandmother. I think this is
partly because a lot of toxic people have a way of making you
second-guess yourself and wonder if you're partly at fault,
partly because societal expectations often make it hard to truly
describe toxic behavior in a way that people who aren't dealing
with toxic people themselves really grasp the problem (plus,
accurately describing it makes people uncomfortable), and partly
because it's often a toxic pattern of lots of a relatively
small-seeming things rather than a few blatantly over-the-line
behaviors, all of which make it tempting to downplay the
description to not make people write you off as
exaggerating/overreacting. Not to mention that a lot of toxic
people manage to behave themselves much better around people
they want to impress.
If you'd asked me early in that job why I found my boss so
upsetting, I probably would mentioned things like him frequently
getting "angry" in meetings. That was a terrible description:
"angry" is vague, and can apply to a huge spectrum of behavior
ranging from completely reasonable to horrifically
inappropriate. It wasn't until I got so stressed out that I went
to counseling, and the counselor asked "What makes you conclude
that he is angry?" that I started articulating actual behaviors
(directed at me and others). For example: He routinely shouted
at people in meetings. He aggressively stabbed his finger at
people's faces for emphases. He told a colleague that their
(internal) presentation "looked like a [barnyard animal] made
it" (for the record, the slides in question were better than a
lot of formal presentations I've seen and perfectly reasonable
for the casual internal status update they actually were).
Someone from a different group who did not work for him in any
capacity heard a conversation where he was shouting at me while
I stood my ground and defended my position on whatever he was
shouting about, and she commented that he clearly must respect
me...based on comparison to the way he had screamed at her in
the past (again--she didn't even work for him). And those are
just the tip of the iceberg. When I describe him in those terms,
people seem get it. But I did not start off by articulating the
"best examples" that actually get through to other people. I
initially tried to be "reasonable" and "polite" and soft-pedaled
the situation, which resulted in people dismissing my
frustrations and suggesting I was being too oversensitive.
[/quote]
There are very good reasons to assume there is no truly toxic
behavior.
1) Sue is willing to spend time with MIL when it is convenient
for her and does not impose on how she wants to spend her time
with her family.
2) Tom wants to spend time with his mom.
3) The OP is close enough friends with Sue for Sue to confide in
and for the OP to give Sue her opinion. If there was true toxic
behavior, the OP would most likely be aware.
[/quote]
None of those are good reasons to assume there is no truly toxic
behavior.
1 - she is willing to spend time with MIL in places/events that
minimize bad behavior
2 - people who are raised by toxic people rarely are able to see
how toxic their family is without help.
3 - not everyone shares everything with everyone. how often do
are people shocked at domestic violence and express that they
never knew it was happening.
In this case based on the new info it doesn't seem like MIL is
toxic
#Post#: 42631--------------------------------------------------
Re: Inviting (or not) judgmental MIL to Christmas lunch?
By: Hanna Date: November 25, 2019, 10:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=LifeOnPluto link=topic=1407.msg42181#msg42181
date=1574073684]
Sue's rationale is "I don't want to be judged and commented on,
in my own house on Christmas Day. Plus, it's not fair on my
parents if she is there - there is too much tension."
Tom's rationale is "She's my mum. She's had a tough couple of
years. I don't want to leave her by herself on Christmas Day."
This has caused some friction between Sue and Tom. Both of them
feel the other is being unreasonable and unsupportive. For the
record, Sue is fine with celebrating Christmas with her MIL on
Christmas Eve or Boxing Day - just not Christmas Day itself.
[/quote]
This part seems important to me. Sue is not saying her MIL is
toxic; she is actually willing to be around her over the
holidays, just not at this particular time of the day. She
obviously believes her needs and those of her parents are more
important than her husband's wishes.
After giving her own Family of Origin precedence for all the
prior holidays, it seems like Tom and his family should have a
turn.
Obviously though, she's unwilling to bend and she wears the
pants so what she wants is what's going to happen regardless of
everyone else's desires or needs. Since we are making guesses
about people in the situation being toxic, she sounds like a
potential candidate also.
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