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#Post#: 42019--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: November 14, 2019, 1:47 pm
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That's an interesting link.
But there's a dichotomy here.
She thinks they should be reserved for only those who are
disabled, but then decries the mistreatment of people who are
not obviously disabled, and who are shamed or criticized for
using those toilets. And she's fierce (rightfully so) that a
person shouldn't have to disclose their disability to onlookers.
[quote]Over 50 per cent of those who suffer from Crohn’s or
colitis have been subjected to discrimination for using an
accessible toilet, according to Andy McGuinness, campaigners
manager at Crohn’s & Colitis UK.
[/quote]
So if she doesn't want the community at large to shame those
with non-visible disabilities, then she's going to need to live
with the idea that some non-disabled folks are going to use
those toilets. She's making an appeal to individuals to make
private decisions in line with her wishes, which is fair--but
the risk of that appeal is that all kinds of people will decide
to enforce it. That is rampant across America with parking
spaces, even when people DO have a placard, or when there are
three spaces and a basketball player parks in one of them at
3am.
In the U.S., there are often single toilets that are accessible;
sometimes we don't have any choice.
[quote]Let’s start with handrails. I can often tell when someone
who most likely hasn’t got an impairment has used the accessible
loo, as the handrails are often pushed up out of the way.
...
I’ve visited many bathrooms where the emergency cord and toilet
paper have been moved out of reach.
[/quote]
In the U.S., handrails, emergency cords, and toilet paper cannot
be moved. Are your bathrooms different from ours? it is not
physically possible for me to alter the interior of a
handicapped toilet stall. So then how would I make her less
safe? (except to perhaps be in the way when she arrives? In
which case, I'm with Hanna, anybody w/ obvious disability jumps
to the front of the line; and anyone who asks for that stall can
jump to the front as well--I don't need details, but you're
going to have to ask)
Even if only disabled people used those toilets, THEY might bump
something out of position, even accidentally!
#Post#: 42026--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Gellchom Date: November 14, 2019, 2:25 pm
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My husband and I were recently in Washington, DC, staying near a
Metro stop that had an elevator, which was the only entrance
close to us (the stairs and escalator were across the street).
The sign said to give priority to the disabled and seniors,
which we are, at least by some metrics -- it didn't give an age.
I mean, we aren't feeble, but we are seniors, so if the idea is
not just helping people with physical challenges, but also to
show courtesy to elders, then we would be entitled to "elevator
priority." No one let us go ahead, and we didn't mind or
complain, but I did notice that no one seemed to think about it.
Most people were hurrying and/or engrossed in their phones; I
doubt they would have noticed a wheelchair, either.
I too would let someone with an obvious physical challenge like
someone using a chair, walker, crutches, or cane go ahead of me,
but I'd do that anywhere to try to be considerate, not just at
an elevator or rest room. Nevertheless, I think that this woman
in the wheelchair was rude. She could have just asked nicely,
for that matter.
#Post#: 42027--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: gramma dishes Date: November 14, 2019, 2:35 pm
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[quote author=Kimpossible link=topic=1403.msg42000#msg42000
date=1573747919]
It is my opinion that there should be dedicated parking spaces
for persons with disabilities and separate spaces that are
dedicated to persons using wheelchairs. Spaces for wheelchairs
don't necessarily need to be close to an entrance, they only
need ample room to load and unload the chairs. Spaces for people
with disabilities don't necessarily need extra space, they just
need to be closer to an entrance.
[/quote]
Yes. This. There is so much wasted parking space because all
the handicap spots have the are with the lines. As you said,
not everyone needs a loading ramp area but definitely needs to
be near the door. They should have some of each kind available
where possible!
#Post#: 42028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Jem Date: November 14, 2019, 2:50 pm
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[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1403.msg42026#msg42026
date=1573763148]
...No one let us go ahead, and we didn't mind or complain, but I
did notice that no one seemed to think about it. Most people
were hurrying and/or engrossed in their phones; I doubt they
would have noticed a wheelchair, either.
I too would let someone with an obvious physical challenge like
someone using a chair, walker, crutches, or cane go ahead of me,
but I'd do that anywhere to try to be considerate, not just at
an elevator or rest room. Nevertheless, I think that this woman
in the wheelchair was rude. She could have just asked nicely,
for that matter.
[/quote]
I think there is some level of "some people are going to be
offended no matter what" that happens. I know of disabled people
who are irritated when other people obviously notice their
disability or treat them differently because of it (even when
they are being treated BETTER because of their disability).
I trust that, generally speaking, most people are not setting
out to make life more difficult for other people. I am not going
to rush to get in line ahead of someone in a wheelchair, for
example. But I'm also not going to assume that the person in the
wheelchair needs my help, whether physically or in the sense of
speaking for them. If they ask me to move, or to go ahead of me,
or for me to help them in some way, absolutely I will! But I am
not going to assume that because I can visually see that they
are disabled that they are somehow incapable of handling
themselves.
#Post#: 42029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Hanna Date: November 14, 2019, 3:02 pm
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Toots the handrails in the bathrooms I have seen are indeed
moveable, like armrests on an airplane- which could be very
helpful for someone in a chair needing to move close before
shifting over. The bathrooms I am talking about are quite large
- not just large stalls in a bathroom with other smaller stalls.
#Post#: 42030--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: TootsNYC Date: November 14, 2019, 3:09 pm
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[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1403.msg42029#msg42029
date=1573765353]
Toots the handrails in the bathrooms I have seen are indeed
moveable, like armrests on an airplane- which could be very
helpful for someone in a chair needing to move close before
shifting over. The bathrooms I am talking about are quite large
- not just large stalls in a bathroom with other smaller stalls.
[/quote]
But then, couldn't the last disabled person have left them in a
position that's inconvenient for the next person?
#Post#: 42040--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Hanna Date: November 14, 2019, 5:44 pm
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[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1403.msg42030#msg42030
date=1573765766]
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1403.msg42029#msg42029
date=1573765353]
Toots the handrails in the bathrooms I have seen are indeed
moveable, like armrests on an airplane- which could be very
helpful for someone in a chair needing to move close before
shifting over. The bathrooms I am talking about are quite large
- not just large stalls in a bathroom with other smaller stalls.
[/quote]
But then, couldn't the last disabled person have left them in a
position that's inconvenient for the next person?
[/quote]
Yes, sure could.
#Post#: 42059--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Aleko Date: November 15, 2019, 6:56 am
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[quote][quote]Here in the UK, if a stall has the wheelchair logo
on it then it is intended only for people with a disability of
some sort that means they need accessible facilities (i.e. not
necessarily wheelchair-bound), and I think most Rightpondians
accept that. Which doesn't mean that we don't sometimes nip in
and use one, if say half the normal stalls are out of order and
there doesn't seem to be anyone waiting who seems to want it;
but it's felt as a distinct transgression, much as if one were
to use a cubicle labelled for the opposite sex.[/quote]
Do you have a cite for that? That is not how things are in the
US, and I am surprised to hear that that would be the case in
the UK. Do people need to have a tag of some sort to use the
handicapped stall? And these stalls are intended to be unused
the majority of the time and people are to wait in line and
leave that stall unused if they don't have a disability of some
sort? I would find that extremely odd in practice.[/quote]
There is no actual law about it, but
not-using-the-disabled-toilet-unless-you're-disabled is the
understood convention, which is understood, as I said, even by
people who don't always obey it. Here for example is an article
illustrating this:
HTML https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/30/by-using-the-disabled-toilet-youre-putting-me-at-risk-9327740/
No, there is no tag for it, unlike the blue badge showing you
can use a disabled parking place. This can cause difficulties
for people with a non-obvious disability, and also the
wheelchair sign causes many people to assume that only
wheelchair users can use them. In the last couple of years some
places have started adding a "not all disabilities are visible"
slogan to the sign: here's an article about that, featuring an
anecdote from a disabled person who encountered a security guard
at Wembley Stadium who tried to prevent her using the disabled
toilet because he thought they were only for wheelchair users:
HTML http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/39339946/why-these-new-signs-are-appearing-on-disabled-toilets.<br
/>
So it may seem odd to you, but that's the way it is here. After
all, the fact that there wasn't a queue when you slipped into
the disabled cubicle doesn't mean that some disabled person in
dire need isn't going to arrive three seconds after you ago in!
#Post#: 42062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Jem Date: November 15, 2019, 7:33 am
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[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1403.msg42059#msg42059
date=1573822570]
So it may seem odd to you, but that's the way it is here. After
all, the fact that there wasn't a queue when you slipped into
the disabled cubicle doesn't mean that some disabled person in
dire need isn't going to arrive three seconds after you ago in!
[/quote]
Well, if there is a “normal” stall open I would use that one,
but if not, I will use an available stall even if it is
“handicap accessible.” I don’t think it is egregious for someone
who arrives after I have already entered the stall to have to
wait, even if they are in a wheelchair.
edited to fix the quote box
#Post#: 42064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mass transit ...elevator etiquette
By: Songbird Date: November 15, 2019, 8:45 am
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[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1403.msg42006#msg42006
date=1573752152]
was this Jackson Heights? Those elevators are a royal PITA.
There's almost never an "everybody is getting off" moment.
Retrofitting an elevator never gets a satisfactory result.
I do think that someone in a wheelchair, or with a walker, or
with a cane, gets to get on the elevator and able-bodied people
should hang back.
But if other people are already on, then the
wheelchair/walker/etc. people should have to wait. Nobody should
give up their spot on the elevator for them.
I will say, from an ethical point of view, that if you are
able-bodied, you should not take an elevator in a crowded
situation like that. (from a practical point of view, it's
stupid to, because it will take forever and be unpleasant--and
in a mezzanine setup, you don't have long, long staircases to
climb; you get a rest between)
So if you assume that everyone is following those two principles
(ethics and practicality), then everyone on that elevator is
there for a reason, and wheelchairs don't get priority.
One could argue that they should actually be MORE patient,
because at least they're already sitting down! The person with
the walker, or with a dodgy knee, or a heart condition, is
continuing to undergo more stress.
[/quote]
Brooklyn, actually. the Atlantic Avenue hub. The elevators
are horrid. If my knees weren't so unhappy with stairs, I'd
never go near the elevators.
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