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#Post#: 41667--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Jem Date: November 8, 2019, 1:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1388.msg41664#msg41664
date=1573242645]
Contrarian is trying to nail down a meaning of an ambiguous
expression, bless her heart.
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I didn't read Contrarian's posts that way
at all. I think she is asking why some people would advocate for
using phrases that are clearly meant to be condescending and
convey disdain. Not that she doesn't understand what is being
conveyed by those phrases.
#Post#: 41668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hmmm Date: November 8, 2019, 2:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1388.msg41557#msg41557
date=1573069181]
I saw this as a suggested response on another thread, and not
for the first time so I don’t want to single anyone out.
We all know it’s a Southern US, phrase, idiom, colloquialism...
(if any one has the correct term please let me know), for “my
god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to pretend that
I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly shows what a
moron I think you are, while appearing polite”.
Isn’t this the height of passive aggressiveness? Or at the very
least incredibly condescending? Is this really ok? Thick, syrupy
condescending sarcasm, is what it appears to me. What am I
missing? How is this a polite response? Is the idea that the
person receiving it is so obtuse that they won’t know how it’s
meant and therefore will not be hurt but the one saying it has
the satisfaction of stating their beliefs without being
responsible?
I have no knowledge of the etiquette or manners of the Southern
US but despite their reputation of being xenophobic in some
instances, I hear just as much about the kindness and welcoming
behaviour shown in the South. I believe the latter more common
and the previous, well one can find a bit of it everywhere.
So what is this phrase? It really sounds to me like the most
condescending phrase pretending not to be condescending whilst
knowing it is clearly condescending.
Please tell me what I’m missing. And why it’s such a popular
response.
[/quote]
So I went back to read the post that started you down the
discussion path and it was in regards to the woman insisting an
OP not buy a soup she did not like. It was suggested to reply
"Well, bless your heart for letting us know." Followed by a
smile and then disregard.
Other suggestions were to respond:
"I heard you."
Oh, thanks for that input. I think I'm going to give it a try
anyway, though--I've had some good luck with these. And
everybody's different."
"I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it but we still plan to try it out."
"duly noted but I'll make my own decision, thanks!"
"I heard you..I think I am going to try it anyway."
I don't see why the Bless your heart statement seemed more
condescending than the other remarks. I think it may be because
you incorrectly believe the term to only imply your stated
definition "“my god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to
pretend that I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly
shows what a moron I think you are, while appearing polite”."
As stated here, it has many different implications and the one
that you've focused on is the one that is least used.
Had I been the grocery store woman soup woman I would have heard
"Well, bless your heart for letting us know." as 'I'm sorry that
you didn't enjoy the soup, it was kind of you to tell us your
experience."
#Post#: 41669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: TootsNYC Date: November 8, 2019, 2:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Conveying disdain is actually a function of Etiquette.
Etiquette does not require us to always make nice and never
express our frustration or judgment.
It does generally require us to not make a tremendous scene that
makes lots of other people uncomfortable without good reason.
Hence, the Cut Direct (in which one looks one's loathed enemy in
the face and turns away as if they don't exist) is on the list,
as is the Cut Indirect (in which one pretends one didn't
actually see or hear them).
And the Cut Direct is considered "going nuclear"--one uses it
for the man who dishonored your counsin, or the woman who
defrauded your aunt, etc.
#Post#: 41670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hmmm Date: November 8, 2019, 2:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41667#msg41667
date=1573243039]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1388.msg41664#msg41664
date=1573242645]
Contrarian is trying to nail down a meaning of an ambiguous
expression, bless her heart.
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I didn't read Contrarian's posts that way
at all. I think she is asking why some people would advocate for
using phrases that are clearly meant to be condescending and
convey disdain. Not that she doesn't understand what is being
conveyed by those phrases.
[/quote]
What we have tried to explain is that Contrarian's understanding
of the phrase (and what you appear to believe also) is wrong .
She stated
We all know it’s a Southern US, phrase, idiom, colloquialism...
for “my god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to pretend
that I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly shows
what a moron I think you are, while appearing polite”.
What most of us know that is not the most common use of the
phrase, it's actually very infrequently used in that manner.
We've tried to explain the most common meanings of the phrase.
As I stated in another post, mass media has somehow
misappropriated the phrase. Here is a much more articulate post
than what I have been trying to say.
HTML https://indirectlibre.com/2016/01/21/on-blessing-someones-heart/
#Post#: 41671--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Gellchom Date: November 8, 2019, 2:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41666#msg41666
date=1573242957]
I think I understand what Contrarian is saying, and I think it's
a concept we've discussed on this board before. I could be
wrong, but this is my take on it….
The issue is not the phrase "bless your heart" in and of itself.
It's the "etiquette advice" to say something that arguably is
"polite" while clearly intending to convey disdain for the
person or action discussed.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Contrarian is asking why some
people assert that it is good etiquette advice to clearly make
one's disdain known. This board has discussed the disconnect
between etiquette and being polite, but as I understand
Contrarian's question s/he is asking why etiquette (in general)
would advocate for the passive aggressive condescension that
certain apparently "etiquette approved" phrases conveys.
I don't think Contrarian is speaking to posters who don't
advocate for the passive aggressive phrases being used. I think
s/he is asking why those who DO advocate for passive-aggressive
phrases to be used do so.
From my perspective, using "polite" phrases in clearly
condescending disdainful ways may be "etiquette approved" by
some people and "authorities," but I don't think it paints the
speaker in a good light.
[/quote]
Very well put, Jem, and a very good question, Contrarian.
#Post#: 41679--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Jem Date: November 8, 2019, 3:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1388.msg41670#msg41670
date=1573244152]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41667#msg41667
date=1573243039]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1388.msg41664#msg41664
date=1573242645]
Contrarian is trying to nail down a meaning of an ambiguous
expression, bless her heart.
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I didn't read Contrarian's posts that way
at all. I think she is asking why some people would advocate for
using phrases that are clearly meant to be condescending and
convey disdain. Not that she doesn't understand what is being
conveyed by those phrases.
[/quote]
What we have tried to explain is that Contrarian's understanding
of the phrase (and what you appear to believe also) is wrong .
She stated
We all know it’s a Southern US, phrase, idiom, colloquialism...
for “my god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to pretend
that I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly shows
what a moron I think you are, while appearing polite”.
What most of us know that is not the most common use of the
phrase, it's actually very infrequently used in that manner.
We've tried to explain the most common meanings of the phrase.
As I stated in another post, mass media has somehow
misappropriated the phrase. Here is a much more articulate post
than what I have been trying to say.
HTML https://indirectlibre.com/2016/01/21/on-blessing-someones-heart/
[/quote]
I think we are talking past each other. I know that the actual
phrase "bless your heart" can mean various things depending on
tone and context. I think Contrarian knows that too. I am saying
that what I understand Contrarian's question to be has very
little to do with the actual words "bless your heart" and more
to do with the use of generic "[insert words here that are in
fact clearly meant to convey condescending disdain]."
I think she is asking why some people (not you specifically)
would advocate that it is appropriate to use whatever phrase to
clearly convey disdain and condescension.
I don't think this is about not understanding what "bless your
heart" means. I think it is about using whatever words are used
when the point is to convey disdain and condescension.
#Post#: 41680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: chigger Date: November 8, 2019, 4:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1388.msg41670#msg41670
date=1573244152]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41667#msg41667
date=1573243039]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1388.msg41664#msg41664
date=1573242645]
Contrarian is trying to nail down a meaning of an ambiguous
expression, bless her heart.
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I didn't read Contrarian's posts that way
at all. I think she is asking why some people would advocate for
using phrases that are clearly meant to be condescending and
convey disdain. Not that she doesn't understand what is being
conveyed by those phrases.
[/quote]
What we have tried to explain is that Contrarian's understanding
of the phrase (and what you appear to believe also) is wrong .
She stated
We all know it’s a Southern US, phrase, idiom, colloquialism...
for “my god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to pretend
that I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly shows
what a moron I think you are, while appearing polite”.
What most of us know that is not the most common use of the
phrase, it's actually very infrequently used in that manner.
We've tried to explain the most common meanings of the phrase.
As I stated in another post, mass media has somehow
misappropriated the phrase. Here is a much more articulate post
than what I have been trying to say.
HTML https://indirectlibre.com/2016/01/21/on-blessing-someones-heart/
[/quote]
Exactly! As a southern woman I am so sick and tired of
hearing,through mass media(AKA clickbait) that I am insulting
someone when I say "Bless your heart". I am 54 years old, and I
can count on one hand the times I have heard it used the the
shitty way. Then the person that said it was side-eyed for being
a witch.
#Post#: 41689--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hmmm Date: November 8, 2019, 6:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41679#msg41679
date=1573249161]
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1388.msg41670#msg41670
date=1573244152]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41667#msg41667
date=1573243039]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1388.msg41664#msg41664
date=1573242645]
Contrarian is trying to nail down a meaning of an ambiguous
expression, bless her heart.
[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I didn't read Contrarian's posts that way
at all. I think she is asking why some people would advocate for
using phrases that are clearly meant to be condescending and
convey disdain. Not that she doesn't understand what is being
conveyed by those phrases.
[/quote]
What we have tried to explain is that Contrarian's understanding
of the phrase (and what you appear to believe also) is wrong .
She stated
We all know it’s a Southern US, phrase, idiom, colloquialism...
for “my god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to pretend
that I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly shows
what a moron I think you are, while appearing polite”.
What most of us know that is not the most common use of the
phrase, it's actually very infrequently used in that manner.
We've tried to explain the most common meanings of the phrase.
As I stated in another post, mass media has somehow
misappropriated the phrase. Here is a much more articulate post
than what I have been trying to say.
HTML https://indirectlibre.com/2016/01/21/on-blessing-someones-heart/
[/quote]
I think we are talking past each other. I know that the actual
phrase "bless your heart" can mean various things depending on
tone and context. I think Contrarian knows that too. I am saying
that what I understand Contrarian's question to be has very
little to do with the actual words "bless your heart" and more
to do with the use of generic "[insert words here that are in
fact clearly meant to convey condescending disdain]."
I think she is asking why some people (not you specifically)
would advocate that it is appropriate to use whatever phrase to
clearly convey disdain and condescension.
I don't think this is about not understanding what "bless your
heart" means. I think it is about using whatever words are used
when the point is to convey disdain and condescension.
[/quote]
What I am saying is that her position of using bless your heart
to be disdainful of someone or to blatantly show I think your a
moron is a fallacy. That is a media and meme incorrect
appropriation of the term. So when someone recommends using
"Bless your heart" they are NOT in most cases recommending you
be blatantly disdainful or indicate you think the person is an
utter moron.
In the very few situations where it is used to indicate you
found someone's comment offensive, it sort of a Southern "icy
stare". Miss Manners has stated that you can respond to rude
questions with an icy stare. In the South, you might instead
hear "bless your heart, aren't you the inquisitive one."
Are we now to the point of saying that using an icy stare is so
passive aggressive that it should be banned etiquette wise?
#Post#: 41700--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Jem Date: November 9, 2019, 9:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think that is the question: is it “etiquette approved” to say
or do things that are intended to convey condescension and
disdain.
Some of you (generally) are saying it is. I think Contrarian is
asking why you (general) think that is okay.
I get “Miss Manners says XYZ” but I think what Contrarian is
asking is why is it “okay” to be rude in such circumstances?
I am not answering her question, I am pointing out that I don’t
think it has really anything to do with the three words “bless
your heart.”
#Post#: 41704--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hmmm Date: November 9, 2019, 10:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1388.msg41700#msg41700
date=1573314880]
I think that is the question: is it “etiquette approved” to say
or do things that are intended to convey condescension and
disdain.
Some of you (generally) are saying it is. I think Contrarian is
asking why you (general) think that is okay.
I get “Miss Manners says XYZ” but I think what Contrarian is
asking is why is it “okay” to be rude in such circumstances?
I am not answering her question, I am pointing out that I don’t
think it has really anything to do with the three words “bless
your heart.”
[/quote]
Ah, OK, I now understand your point. It's a more general
question about why is it sometimes OK to use a phrase or gesture
that could be considered rude. So in this category could be:
The icy stare
The raised eyebrow
The long pause and then change of subject
Or a "How dare you"
In my personal opinion, using one of these might be the kinder
way* to respond to an inappropriate comment or question. A less
passive response could escalate and be more confrontational and
cause not only the person making the comment more uncomfortable
but also anyone witnessing it.
For example, any of the above could be an appropriate response
to"How much did you pay for your handbag?" Or you could confront
the question directly with "I find your question offensive and
nosy. What I paid is none of your business."
But a response of a long pause and a "Are you looking to
purchase a new bag? I can recommend a couple of sources." This
lets the asker now they've overstepped and has changed the
subject to something else.
If saying the last sentence, you are most likely going to an
argument back or a comment about you being too touchy. You've
also now drawn out the interchange and any observers are going
to be more uncomfortable. In the South, the same could be done
with a "bless your heart, are you looking to buy a new purse?"
If I'm still off track, maybe you could come up with an example?
Modified to say that after re-reading "how dare you would not be
a more kinder response.
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