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#Post#: 41646--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hanna Date: November 7, 2019, 9:54 pm
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Contrarian, this thread is reminding me of a friend who I
recently noticed often sets me up to be opposing counsel in the
defense of some person or idea that has offended them, while
they play prosecution.
Why is our job to convince you this thing you’ve decided isn’t
true?
#Post#: 41649--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: oogyda Date: November 8, 2019, 6:27 am
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[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1388.msg41637#msg41637
date=1573174013]
[quote author=Kimpossible link=topic=1388.msg41562#msg41562
date=1573072688]
It was my comment, and I am southern. It's a phrase with nuance.
Certainly not everyone who uses means it as a negative. It
isn't always delivered with a syrupy affect. It can easily, and
sincerely, mean "Thank you" or "I appreciate your assistance."
Depending on how it is said, nearly anything could be sincere or
sarcastic. That's just language.
If I were to say "Bless your heart" to a overly helpful person,
then I would be saying "I hear you, I acknowledge you, and I am
responding." It would give no acceptance or rejection of the
help given. It would be the end of a conversation.
[/quote]
I completely accept and believe this.
But I’m specifically asking about “bless you heart” being
suggested and/or used as a response to someone who has breeched
etiquette, behaved badly or even thoughtlessly.
Just as it can and is used in a positive manner, it is used as
an insult and from what I see online, the use of the phrase as
an insult is widely recognized.This is specifically what I
asking about.
Why is that ok? and why is it so widely suggested on various
etiquette forums that all seem to believe calling out rudeness
is wrong?
If “Bless your heart” isn’t meant to suggest a hugely obtuse
action to the other (when used in this negative manner) than it
is at the least calling out poor behaviour.
So when used in this way, and I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear, why
is it ok?
(Just want to again note I’m sure it is also used positively,
but I would be surprised if anyone here would deny the negative
use of the phrase... but I’ve not read the other comments yet.)
[/quote]
Why is it okay? Because it sounds much nicer than "Jane, you
ignorant slut."
Why is it suggested? Because it's a suggestion. Most likely a
sarcastic one that falls into the category of what we'd like to
say vs. what is acceptable to say.
#Post#: 41653--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hmmm Date: November 8, 2019, 9:37 am
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Based on my personal experience, I believe movies and media have
overhyped the frequency that is it used negatively or as a
direct insult.
When it is used to indicate to someone that they've just said or
done something stupid or has done something you found offensive,
starting with Bless your heart would be a way of softening the
comment. For example:
"You turned the oven up to 500 degrees, have you never baked a
pie before?" in Bless your heart speak would become "Bless your
heart, thank you for turning the oven on, but you really don't
want to bake pies at 500 degrees". By adding bless your heart,
you've not only corrected the usually younger relative but
you've also indicated you would have expected them to already
have that knowledge.
Before "mansplanning" was a term, it was often used in response
when a woman was mansplained to. I heard many a woman respond to
a mansplainer with "well bless your heart, aren't you the smart
one". It was always very effective in shutting down the
mansplaining because either the man thought they had just gotten
validation or they understood the intention and knew it was time
to keep their mouth shut.
Can you point us to where you are referencing where people are
actually suggesting it be used in real life situations as a
direct insult?
#Post#: 41654--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Hmmm Date: November 8, 2019, 9:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My DD reminded me a perfect example of using to say you're an
idiot but I love you anyway.
DS was making hotdogs last week but I had bought buns that were
split on top. DS spent 2 minutes trying to figure out where the
bun as split, turning it over and over. DD's response was to
laugh and "omg" with an eyeroll where mine was a laugh and a
"bless your heart".
#Post#: 41655--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Rose Red Date: November 8, 2019, 10:20 am
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[quote author=oogyda link=topic=1388.msg41649#msg41649
date=1573216043]
[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1388.msg41637#msg41637
date=1573174013]
[quote author=Kimpossible link=topic=1388.msg41562#msg41562
date=1573072688]
It was my comment, and I am southern. It's a phrase with nuance.
Certainly not everyone who uses means it as a negative. It
isn't always delivered with a syrupy affect. It can easily, and
sincerely, mean "Thank you" or "I appreciate your assistance."
Depending on how it is said, nearly anything could be sincere or
sarcastic. That's just language.
If I were to say "Bless your heart" to a overly helpful person,
then I would be saying "I hear you, I acknowledge you, and I am
responding." It would give no acceptance or rejection of the
help given. It would be the end of a conversation.
[/quote]
I completely accept and believe this.
But I’m specifically asking about “bless you heart” being
suggested and/or used as a response to someone who has breeched
etiquette, behaved badly or even thoughtlessly.
Just as it can and is used in a positive manner, it is used as
an insult and from what I see online, the use of the phrase as
an insult is widely recognized.This is specifically what I
asking about.
Why is that ok? and why is it so widely suggested on various
etiquette forums that all seem to believe calling out rudeness
is wrong?
If “Bless your heart” isn’t meant to suggest a hugely obtuse
action to the other (when used in this negative manner) than it
is at the least calling out poor behaviour.
So when used in this way, and I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear, why
is it ok?
(Just want to again note I’m sure it is also used positively,
but I would be surprised if anyone here would deny the negative
use of the phrase... but I’ve not read the other comments yet.)
[/quote]
Why is it okay? Because it sounds much nicer than "Jane, you
ignorant slut."
Why is it suggested? Because it's a suggestion. Most likely a
sarcastic one that falls into the category of what we'd like to
say vs. what is acceptable to say.
[/quote]
I agree with this.
Contrarian, I'm not sure what answer you are looking for. There
are many phrases that let offenders know they are being rude or
stupid without saying it to their face. It even goes over the
offender's head sometimes. Many phrases made up by Miss Manners
herself.
How kind of you to take an interest.
If you forgive me for not answering, I'll forgive you for
asking.
Let's agree to disagree.
And many more where those come from.
I certainly am not going to say "You're an idiot" to their face.
But "bless your heart" cannot be argued with since they are
technically kind words.
edited for spelling.
#Post#: 41659--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: TootsNYC Date: November 8, 2019, 12:06 pm
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[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1388.msg41646#msg41646
date=1573185254]
Contrarian, this thread is reminding me of a friend who I
recently noticed often sets me up to be opposing counsel in the
defense of some person or idea that has offended them, while
they play prosecution.
Why is our job to convince you this thing you’ve decided isn’t
true?
[/quote]
Or why should we defend something we don't do and haven't
advocated?
In the soup thread, I took the phrase as meant to be friendly
and complimentary: "That's so nice of you to share with me, but
I don't intend to engage further."
Of course people suggest the sarcastic usage of it; people do
that all the time. Doesn't mean anybody here should argue that
they're right.
#Post#: 41660--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: TootsNYC Date: November 8, 2019, 12:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1388.msg41654#msg41654
date=1573228447]
My DD reminded me a perfect example of using to say you're an
idiot but I love you anyway.
DS was making hotdogs last week but I had bought buns that were
split on top. DS spent 2 minutes trying to figure out where the
bun as split, turning it over and over. DD's response was to
laugh and "omg" with an eyeroll where mine was a laugh and a
"bless your heart".
[/quote]
Sort of "I know you meant well."
#Post#: 41663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: JeanFromBNA Date: November 8, 2019, 1:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1388.msg41557#msg41557
date=1573069181]
I saw this as a suggested response on another thread, and not
for the first time so I don’t want to single anyone out.
We all know it’s a Southern US, phrase, idiom, colloquialism...
(if any one has the correct term please let me know), for “my
god you’re obtuse aren’t you? We’ll I’m going to pretend that
I’m being kind, while using a phrase that blatantly shows what a
moron I think you are, while appearing polite”.
Isn’t this the height of passive aggressiveness? Or at the very
least incredibly condescending? Is this really ok? Thick, syrupy
condescending sarcasm, is what it appears to me. What am I
missing? How is this a polite response? Is the idea that the
person receiving it is so obtuse that they won’t know how it’s
meant and therefore will not be hurt but the one saying it has
the satisfaction of stating their beliefs without being
responsible?
I have no knowledge of the etiquette or manners of the Southern
US but despite their reputation of being xenophobic in some
instances, I hear just as much about the kindness and welcoming
behaviour shown in the South. I believe the latter more common
and the previous, well one can find a bit of it everywhere.
So what is this phrase? It really sounds to me like the most
condescending phrase pretending not to be condescending whilst
knowing it is clearly condescending.
Please tell me what I’m missing. And why it’s such a popular
response.
[/quote]
It's not news to Southerners that Southern culture is usually
misunderstood and poorly attributed, hence your comment about
the region having a reputation for xenophobia.
In the Southern U.S., which is apparently where the phrase
originated, it is very nuanced, as several Southerners have
described to you. It's not our fault nor our responsibility to
explain to you how the interwebs picked it up and turned it into
a phrase that you don't like. Like Abraham Lincoln once said,
"Don't believe everything that you read on the internet." If you
come down here and try to weaponize the phrase IRL as you
imagine it's usually done, you'll be looked at with amusement.
Someone will probably reply, "I beg your pardon?"
I don't think that Irish people owe me an explanation for the
prevalence of green beer in Chicago on March 17th.
#Post#: 41664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Gellchom Date: November 8, 2019, 1:50 pm
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Contrarian is trying to nail down a meaning of an ambiguous
expression, bless her heart.
#Post#: 41666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bless your heart
By: Jem Date: November 8, 2019, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think I understand what Contrarian is saying, and I think it's
a concept we've discussed on this board before. I could be
wrong, but this is my take on it….
The issue is not the phrase "bless your heart" in and of itself.
It's the "etiquette advice" to say something that arguably is
"polite" while clearly intending to convey disdain for the
person or action discussed.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Contrarian is asking why some
people assert that it is good etiquette advice to clearly make
one's disdain known. This board has discussed the disconnect
between etiquette and being polite, but as I understand
Contrarian's question s/he is asking why etiquette (in general)
would advocate for the passive aggressive condescension that
certain apparently "etiquette approved" phrases conveys.
I don't think Contrarian is speaking to posters who don't
advocate for the passive aggressive phrases being used. I think
s/he is asking why those who DO advocate for passive-aggressive
phrases to be used do so.
From my perspective, using "polite" phrases in clearly
condescending disdainful ways may be "etiquette approved" by
some people and "authorities," but I don't think it paints the
speaker in a good light.
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