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#Post#: 39642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Hmmm Date: October 1, 2019, 3:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39616#msg39616
date=1569942491]
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1352.msg39614#msg39614
date=1569941871]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39489#msg39489
date=1569779995]
Every so often I see comments (not necessarily on this site)
that it is “okay” to make fun of someone (or talk down to or
about them) if the speaker believes the other person to be of
lesser intelligence, or even simply disagrees with their
opinion. These same commenters are often very vocal that it is
NOT okay to disparage the way a person looks (although
ironically I have seen some people applaud those who make fun of
people who have worked hard on their appearance).
Personally, I am not a fan of attacks regardless of the reason,
but I don’t understand why people believe it is okay to rip on
someone for certain characteristics or behaviors but not others.
Thoughts? Do you think it is okay to make fun of people in
certain circumstances?
[/quote]
I do not believe it is every appropriate or "ok" to mock or make
fun of someone for any reason. In the context that was discussed
here around doing it during a confrontation or debate, yes I
have I done it and will most likely do it again but I know it is
not an effective way to communicate.
I recognize when I do it in reaction to a disagreement, it is
because I have become frustrated or angry that the other person
couldn't or wouldn't accept my view. So responding with a "geez,
where did you get your facts, The Onion?" just escalates the
confrontation and makes the other person dig in more.
I don't know where you are getting comments that mocking of
others is ok, but the people who are saying it is ok are doing
it because they have lost the ability to formulate and
articulate their point of view in an effective manner and have
decided to instead result to mocking someone else to try and
discredit the other person's position.
[/quote]
The bolded green is exactly my point. There were a couple
posters in this thread even who appeared to be defending their
own mocking as justified in certain situations and I am pushing
back on that for the exact reasons you articulated.
[/quote]
I saw one poster, Taurusgirl, who admitted to mocking a former
friend. I don't know if she was defending her action, or just
admitting to having done it, like I admitted that I've fallen
into the trap a couple of times. I've seen others, Toot's for
one, state that they think it is fine to challenge someone's
view, but I took it to mean challenge in an appropriate way, not
in a mocking or bullying way.
But, yes, you and I hold the same view, that mocking of others
is really never appropriate or effective. But none of us are
perfect and we can all admit to sometimes behaving in less than
stellar manner.
#Post#: 39645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Hanna Date: October 1, 2019, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I was taking the question to be asking if we believe it's ok to
engage in the kind of mocking that is making fun of someone,
with others to witness it in an attempt to humiliate them, about
completely unrelated factors because you don't like their
opinion.
If someone calls you stupid in a private conversation and you
say "I am not stupid, you are stupid." I don't consider that
mocking. I consider it responding in kind, although not likely
to yield any positive results.
I also really don't consider it mocking if it's unlikely to
bother the other person in the least. Childish and a waste of
time, but not on the level of making fun of someone where it's
truly likely to make an impact on them or subject them to the
disdain of others.
#Post#: 39648--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Jem Date: October 1, 2019, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1352.msg39645#msg39645
date=1569961638]
I was taking the question to be asking if we believe it's ok to
engage in the kind of mocking that is making fun of someone,
with others to witness it in an attempt to humiliate them, about
completely unrelated factors because you don't like their
opinion.
[/quote]
This is the phenomena I was asking about. It seems some people
actually do think that it is okay to attempt* to humiliate a
person if their opinions differ. I am 100% in favor of polite
discussion and challenging opinions.
What bothers me is when person A will say, "All we need is love.
No hate! People who support sparrow painting are hateful
uneducated losers with no redeeming qualities - they should have
their children taken away so they don't ruin them too! Anyone
who doesn't condemn sparrow painting is also an uneducated loser
- we should out these people so everyone can ridicule them."
That is pretty bland and mild, but you get my point. If you are
saying other people have an opinion you disagree with, and you
believe their opinion to be hateful, and you "hate"
hatefulness.....then why be hateful back? Just disagree and move
on.
*I say "attempt" to humiliate because I don't often think it is
successful, at least in my perception. I tend to think less of
the person being nasty, not less of the person who is being
ridiculed.
#Post#: 39655--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Hanna Date: October 1, 2019, 5:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
JEM, I agree with you on all points.
I also think the people doing this know it’s not OK when other
people do it, therefore they know it’s not OK.
#Post#: 39661--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: NFPwife Date: October 1, 2019, 9:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39648#msg39648
date=1569963397]
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1352.msg39645#msg39645
date=1569961638]
I was taking the question to be asking if we believe it's ok to
engage in the kind of mocking that is making fun of someone,
with others to witness it in an attempt to humiliate them, about
completely unrelated factors because you don't like their
opinion.
[/quote]
This is the phenomena I was asking about. It seems some people
actually do think that it is okay to attempt* to humiliate a
person if their opinions differ. I am 100% in favor of polite
discussion and challenging opinions.
What bothers me is when person A will say, "All we need is love.
No hate! People who support sparrow painting are hateful
uneducated losers with no redeeming qualities - they should have
their children taken away so they don't ruin them too! Anyone
who doesn't condemn sparrow painting is also an uneducated loser
- we should out these people so everyone can ridicule them."
That is pretty bland and mild, but you get my point. If you are
saying other people have an opinion you disagree with, and you
believe their opinion to be hateful, and you "hate"
hatefulness.....then why be hateful back? Just disagree and move
on.
*I say "attempt" to humiliate because I don't often think it is
successful, at least in my perception. I tend to think less of
the person being nasty, not less of the person who is being
ridiculed.
[/quote]
That's a great example. My point is that, in the US at least,
that type of ad hominem attack/ argument is on display
everywhere. Combined with mocking tones and heaping doses of
sarcasm, it's really disheartening and, while I understand that
someone can really push our buttons and get us to respond in
kind sometimes, I really try to stay away from that mocking
style. No one "wins" in that type of argument and everyone
viewing it is either munching away on popcorn or cringing.
#Post#: 39663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: LurkingGurl Date: October 1, 2019, 9:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=PVZFan link=topic=1352.msg39661#msg39661
date=1569983095]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39648#msg39648
date=1569963397]
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1352.msg39645#msg39645
date=1569961638]
I was taking the question to be asking if we believe it's ok to
engage in the kind of mocking that is making fun of someone,
with others to witness it in an attempt to humiliate them, about
completely unrelated factors because you don't like their
opinion.
[/quote]
This is the phenomena I was asking about. It seems some people
actually do think that it is okay to attempt* to humiliate a
person if their opinions differ. I am 100% in favor of polite
discussion and challenging opinions.
What bothers me is when person A will say, "All we need is love.
No hate! People who support sparrow painting are hateful
uneducated losers with no redeeming qualities - they should have
their children taken away so they don't ruin them too! Anyone
who doesn't condemn sparrow painting is also an uneducated loser
- we should out these people so everyone can ridicule them."
That is pretty bland and mild, but you get my point. If you are
saying other people have an opinion you disagree with, and you
believe their opinion to be hateful, and you "hate"
hatefulness.....then why be hateful back? Just disagree and move
on.
*I say "attempt" to humiliate because I don't often think it is
successful, at least in my perception. I tend to think less of
the person being nasty, not less of the person who is being
ridiculed.
[/quote]
That's a great example. My point is that, in the US at least,
that type of ad hominem attack/ argument is on display
everywhere. Combined with mocking tones and heaping doses of
sarcasm, it's really disheartening and, while I understand that
someone can really push our buttons and get us to respond in
kind sometimes, I really try to stay away from that mocking
style. No one "wins" in that type of argument and everyone
viewing it is either munching away on popcorn or cringing.
[/quote]
I think that the division in the US is intentional. There is no
truth. Everything is "spun," lies are everywhere and it has
seeped into every corner so that you can't hardly avoid it!
Reading a newspaper used to mean a plethora of stories of all
kinds and they were labeled local, national, international. And
opinion pieces were all together.
Now, it's just a jumble. My husband calls it the "bullshit
zone." Like--all of it!
When you read the news on any of the major websites, opinion is
jumbled in with reporting pieces. Nothing is reported all that
well. And then there are "stories" that are about what someone
said on Twitter or "Miley speaks out about her split with Cait"
???
Included are stories from every corner of the earth that are
weird or sensational--all of them bad. I don't think of the
news as news anymore, I think of it as bad news.
And again, a lot of it isn't true, or is just true enough to
lead you astray. And sometimes, there are news blackouts of
things--they just completely ignore whole swaths of newsworthy
things--it's really weird.
So, is it any wonder that no one can actually have a level
headed conversation about politics anymore? I don't think they
want us to. I think they don't trust us to come to our own
minds and vote accordingly. I think they need to whip us into
frenzies of outrage so that we will bolt from our houses to go
vote and only vote for who we've been whipped into a frenzy to
vote for.
I haven't cut someone off IRL over politics but I absolutely
have on FB. If someone wants to have a civil conversation about
politics on my FB page, that's fine. But, I have distant
relatives sometimes just making snarky comments on something
political that I will post. I give them the benefit of the
doubt and ask them what they mean by that. But, so far, the
answer has been some kind of insult towards me.
One older relative told me that she doesn't have the time to
read my "insipid ramblings."
Well, ok then! You don't need to be my FB friend! Geez!
I have friends who I know we disagree--I don't go commenting on
their stuff. I have one friend who is really invested in a
certain conspiracy theory that I am passionately against. I
commented a few times and he sent me a PM saying "I really
respect you and your friendship and I don't want to discuss this
with you. You're not going to change my mind."
So, I leave it alone. What does it really matter that he is
invested in that? I like him for all sorts of other reasons and
we have other things in common.
I think the key is not to go to the mat. You might not approve
of what someone else thinks, what their values are or aren't.
But, why would you think that you are so righteous that it gives
you license to be mean and nasty? And what does it accomplish?
Whether you feel that you need to break with someone because
they have values that are some kind of line in the sand for you,
then just back off and fade away. Even when someone is all but
demanding that you engage in an argument, unless they're holding
a gun to your head, the polite thing to do is not take the bait.
#Post#: 39680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Chez Miriam Date: October 2, 2019, 7:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
After thinking about the question, I'm pretty sure that I would
view mocking a person as akin to shouting during an argument.
I've come to realise (over lots of time), that people who have
well-reasoned opinions tend to state them. People (like my
brother, sometimes) who know they are in the wrong will resort
to shouting over the other person until that person gives in.
I've noticed it since I formulated that opinion, and invariably
the person shouting seems incapable ot putting a cogent argument
forward, but hopes/believes they will "win" because they can
shout loudest and longest.
Now, I tend to think "oh, that person knows they are on shaky
ground, otherwise they would put forth their reasoning for that
opinion instead of trying to drown out the opposing person's
voice".
I could be totally wrong, but my obervations seem to concur, and
the mocking person [the more I've thought about it] falls into
that same 'I don't have a good argument, I'll resort to other
tactics' category.
I try to listen, and put forth a reasoned counterargument, as I
really don't like shouting. Not keen on mocking, but can
understand when a person may have felt driven to that by family,
especially.
I just turn into an uncommunicative rock, which I understand
some in my family find deeply irritating [nearly as deeply
irritating as I find their constant criticisms of me, my
actions, and my thoughts, maybe?], but we all have our limits
over how far we can be pushed, I suppose.
#Post#: 39946--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Twik Date: October 7, 2019, 11:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the venue. If you want to talk politics on, say,
Twitter, be prepared for attacks on all sides, some fair, many
unfair. It's the nature of the medium.
In person, it's not polite to imply that someone else is stupid
for not thinking the way you do. If you're going to fight over
sparrow-painting, do it fairly. Attack the position if you think
it's wrong, but not the person putting it forward, and be
prepared to drop the discussion if that can't be done. Then you
can go onto Twitter and insult each other in 280 character
bites.
#Post#: 40068--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Hanna Date: October 9, 2019, 11:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Twik link=topic=1352.msg39946#msg39946
date=1570464141]
Depends on the venue. If you want to talk politics on, say,
Twitter, be prepared for attacks on all sides, some fair, many
unfair. It's the nature of the medium.
In person, it's not polite to imply that someone else is stupid
for not thinking the way you do. If you're going to fight over
sparrow-painting, do it fairly. Attack the position if you think
it's wrong, but not the person putting it forward, and be
prepared to drop the discussion if that can't be done. Then you
can go onto Twitter and insult each other in 280 character
bites.
[/quote]
It's not polite to do it over the internet or the phone, either!
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