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#Post#: 39531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: TootsNYC Date: September 30, 2019, 10:05 am
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[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=1352.msg39493#msg39493
date=1569782787]
I don't know that I'd use the terms "make fun of", but I will
try to explain my way of thinking.
I will not challenge or mock someone about something over which
they have no control; physical appearance, speech impediment,
physical/mental disability. That would just be cruel.
However, if someone (in person or online), starts spouting
something that I either strongly disagree with, know to be
untrue, or that belittles or hurts others, I will challenge them
in that situation.
So for example, I have a good friend with a disability - I'm not
going to make fun of her for limping. I also have a former
friend who expressed a political view that I am adamantly
opposed to, as this view ostracises and hurts others - him I did
challenge, question, mock, and then cut off completely.
[/quote]
This is how I feel--it is beyond awful to disparage people for
things they can't control. (And I usually put weight in there as
well; controlling your weight is not as easy as getting a
haircut.)
I also think it's awful to criticize someone for something that
isn't particularly substantive (how they dress, for example).
But your behavior, and your choice of words, are something you
control. Your uninformed opinion is something you choose. And
while attacks and general nastiness are right out, challenging
or criticizing or condemning you for those is OK.
#Post#: 39538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Hanna Date: September 30, 2019, 10:36 am
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[quote author=DaDancingPsych link=topic=1352.msg39524#msg39524
date=1569853057]
In my opinion...
"You agree with politician X?!? That makes you a big idiot!"
(Not cool.)
"I do not agree with politician X's stance on tea pot
regulations, because blah blah blah." (Better and appropriate in
certain situations.)
"You have a elephant trunk for a nose." (Again, not cool.)
"Your nose is quite large." (Still not cool.)
There is certainly a time and place when you can challenge
someone's opinion and ones that you should avoid doing so. But
there is certainly an appropriate way of doing this. I think it
is never appropriate to comment on things that people can't
control, even if you try to soften your language. All of these
may still hurt, though.
[/quote]
What I find particularly childish is
“You have X opinion?!! Your hair is stupid!”
ie; making fun of personal appearance because you don’t like the
person’s behavior or opinions. Particularly egregious if you
normally present yourself as a righteous and kind person.
#Post#: 39557--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: BeagleMommy Date: September 30, 2019, 2:38 pm
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I don't condescend or "talk down" to people regardless of their
perceived level of education. Some highly educated people are
just not good at expressing themselves. I had a great aunt who
never went past 6th grade who could hold conversations on any
subject simply because she read everything she could get her
hands on. This same aunt struggled her entire life with
rheumatoid arthritis and was wheelchair bound. So some
judgmental person might look at her and after hearing her
education level might talk to her as if she were a non-verbal
two year old. She quickly set them to rights.
#Post#: 39569--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: jpcher Date: September 30, 2019, 4:52 pm
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My personal POV is know your audience.
Gentle teasing is acceptable if you're willing to take the same
back and laugh "Good one!" and know that the comment was not
meant to be hurtful.
My DDs and I tease a lot like this back and forth . . . they
learned it from their dad ::). But it's fun, in a loving way.
My FIL called me one day and said "I hope you have a wonderful
day!" Me: "Thank you, I hope you have a wonderful day too." He
said "It's not my day. It's National Frump Day. Enjoy!" Then
hung up. I laughed so hard, and really did enjoy my day. FIL
took a few minutes out of his time to tease me.
We're also full of compliments . . . a couple of weeks ago DD#2
and I were out and about and we stopped at our local gas station
store. She went in to pick up my usual order plus something for
herself. The GS owner looked at her and said "This is for your
mom, right?" DD#2 said "Yes" GS owner said "You look so much
like her. She's a very nice lady."
DD#2 got back into the car and told the story to me. I said "You
know what? I really like it when people relate me to you." She
looked at me with squinty eyes and I said "Because I don't think
that I'm as pretty as you are." She said "Awww!" I said "You
were waiting for the zing, weren't you?" and we laughed.
There are certain family members and friends that I know I can
tease without bad feelings on their part because they give it
right back to me.
I wouldn't say some of the things I say to my DDs (fam&friends)
or something like FIL said to me to people I've recently met
until I know where they stand on these types of comments. This
includes on-line friends.
To reiterate, I feel it's a know your audience type of thing and
not random insults being thrown out to people that you don't
know well.
#Post#: 39581--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: TaurusGirl Date: September 30, 2019, 9:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39517#msg39517
date=1569847131]
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=1352.msg39493#msg39493
date=1569782787]
I also have a former friend who expressed a political view that
I am adamantly opposed to, as this view ostracises and hurts
others - him I did challenge, question, mock, and then cut off
completely.
[/quote]
This is pretty much my question - I understand challenging a
person on their views and engaging in discussion. What I don’t
understand is the mocking. What is the purpose? To me it
reflects poorly on the person doing the mocking, and not on the
person being mocked. When I see or hear this type of behavior I
immediately think less of the argument being made by the mocker.
Why did you decide to mock and cut off your former friend? What
were you hoping to accomplish and did you accomplish it?
[/quote]
This person had been a close friend with whom I'd shared many
intelligent (I thought, at least) conversations, and we used to
be able to debate when we held opposing views on a subject. But
when it came to this one political view, they were completely
unable to defend their position in an intelligent way. They
basically resorted to calling me stupid and a "lesser person"
for not understanding the greatness of this one political
figure, even though they hurt so many people.
So the mockery came in when my formerly-intelligent friend could
not defend their position, or even intelligently explain any
good qualities of this politician.
#Post#: 39583--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: NFPwife Date: September 30, 2019, 10:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=1352.msg39581#msg39581
date=1569896502]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39517#msg39517
date=1569847131]
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=1352.msg39493#msg39493
date=1569782787]
I also have a former friend who expressed a political view that
I am adamantly opposed to, as this view ostracises and hurts
others - him I did challenge, question, mock, and then cut off
completely.
[/quote]
This is pretty much my question - I understand challenging a
person on their views and engaging in discussion. What I don’t
understand is the mocking. What is the purpose? To me it
reflects poorly on the person doing the mocking, and not on the
person being mocked. When I see or hear this type of behavior I
immediately think less of the argument being made by the mocker.
Why did you decide to mock and cut off your former friend? What
were you hoping to accomplish and did you accomplish it?
[/quote]
This person had been a close friend with whom I'd shared many
intelligent (I thought, at least) conversations, and we used to
be able to debate when we held opposing views on a subject. But
when it came to this one political view, they were completely
unable to defend their position in an intelligent way. They
basically resorted to calling me stupid and a "lesser person"
for not understanding the greatness of this one political
figure, even though they hurt so many people.
So the mockery came in when my formerly-intelligent friend could
not defend their position, or even intelligently explain any
good qualities of this politician.
[/quote]
I hear you! I think discourse is becoming more and more uncivil.
My personal opinion is when someone is experiencing cognitive
dissonance (evidence that challenges their strongly held
conviction) they go to one of two places - "What about - blah,
blah, blah?" (something completely unrelated to the current
conversation and, often something untrue that has been
repeatedly debunked) or an ad hominem attack on the person
raising the evidence that is challenging their fundamentalism. I
think it's being modeled by cable news networks and some of the
other sources they're ingesting so it's seeming more and more
acceptable.
On a side note - the things that are becoming "political" are
interesting. I called an electrician to talk about getting a
charging station installed for an EV, when he finally called
back, days later, I got political talking points! He also talked
down to me, while clearly not knowing anything about the cars,
chargers, or process of installing. He said he'd never done one,
but was sure it wouldn't be hard and would probably just be XYZ.
Except XYZ was the wrong voltage and he was wrong about the
service box. By contrast, the electrician we'd contacted in
between the reach out to this one and his return call, had
installed residential and industrial chargers, knew the
difference in levels of chargers, and had suggestions about
placing the service. The first was so concerned about the
"politics" of electric vehicles and wanting to dissuade us from
the purchase that he lost the job.
#Post#: 39604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Jem Date: October 1, 2019, 7:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=1352.msg39581#msg39581
date=1569896502]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39517#msg39517
date=1569847131]
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=1352.msg39493#msg39493
date=1569782787]
I also have a former friend who expressed a political view that
I am adamantly opposed to, as this view ostracises and hurts
others - him I did challenge, question, mock, and then cut off
completely.
[/quote]
This is pretty much my question - I understand challenging a
person on their views and engaging in discussion. What I don’t
understand is the mocking. What is the purpose? To me it
reflects poorly on the person doing the mocking, and not on the
person being mocked. When I see or hear this type of behavior I
immediately think less of the argument being made by the mocker.
Why did you decide to mock and cut off your former friend? What
were you hoping to accomplish and did you accomplish it?
[/quote]
This person had been a close friend with whom I'd shared many
intelligent (I thought, at least) conversations, and we used to
be able to debate when we held opposing views on a subject. But
when it came to this one political view, they were completely
unable to defend their position in an intelligent way. They
basically resorted to calling me stupid and a "lesser person"
for not understanding the greatness of this one political
figure, even though they hurt so many people.
So the mockery came in when my formerly-intelligent friend could
not defend their position, or even intelligently explain any
good qualities of this politician.
[/quote]
Maybe we are defining “mockery” differently. For me, I
immediately thought less of your friend and his position when
you said he called you “stupid” and a “lesser person.” But then
you said you mocked him as well, which to me diminishes YOUR
position and makes me think both of you acted childishly. Why
not just agree to disagree and move on rather than stoop to his
level? It comes across to me as neither of you acting
appropriately, not that one of you is clearly “wrong” and the
other “justified” in the mocking.
#Post#: 39614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Hmmm Date: October 1, 2019, 9:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39489#msg39489
date=1569779995]
Every so often I see comments (not necessarily on this site)
that it is “okay” to make fun of someone (or talk down to or
about them) if the speaker believes the other person to be of
lesser intelligence, or even simply disagrees with their
opinion. These same commenters are often very vocal that it is
NOT okay to disparage the way a person looks (although
ironically I have seen some people applaud those who make fun of
people who have worked hard on their appearance).
Personally, I am not a fan of attacks regardless of the reason,
but I don’t understand why people believe it is okay to rip on
someone for certain characteristics or behaviors but not others.
Thoughts? Do you think it is okay to make fun of people in
certain circumstances?
[/quote]
I do not believe it is every appropriate or "ok" to mock or make
fun of someone for any reason. In the context that was discussed
here around doing it during a confrontation or debate, yes I
have I done it and will most likely do it again but I know it is
not an effective way to communicate.
I recognize when I do it in reaction to a disagreement, it is
because I have become frustrated or angry that the other person
couldn't or wouldn't accept my view. So responding with a "geez,
where did you get your facts, The Onion?" just escalates the
confrontation and makes the other person dig in more.
I don't know where you are getting comments that mocking of
others is ok, but the people who are saying it is ok are doing
it because they have lost the ability to formulate and
articulate their point of view in an effective manner and have
decided to instead result to mocking someone else to try and
discredit the other person's position.
#Post#: 39616--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Jem Date: October 1, 2019, 10:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1352.msg39614#msg39614
date=1569941871]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1352.msg39489#msg39489
date=1569779995]
Every so often I see comments (not necessarily on this site)
that it is “okay” to make fun of someone (or talk down to or
about them) if the speaker believes the other person to be of
lesser intelligence, or even simply disagrees with their
opinion. These same commenters are often very vocal that it is
NOT okay to disparage the way a person looks (although
ironically I have seen some people applaud those who make fun of
people who have worked hard on their appearance).
Personally, I am not a fan of attacks regardless of the reason,
but I don’t understand why people believe it is okay to rip on
someone for certain characteristics or behaviors but not others.
Thoughts? Do you think it is okay to make fun of people in
certain circumstances?
[/quote]
I do not believe it is every appropriate or "ok" to mock or make
fun of someone for any reason. In the context that was discussed
here around doing it during a confrontation or debate, yes I
have I done it and will most likely do it again but I know it is
not an effective way to communicate.
I recognize when I do it in reaction to a disagreement, it is
because I have become frustrated or angry that the other person
couldn't or wouldn't accept my view. So responding with a "geez,
where did you get your facts, The Onion?" just escalates the
confrontation and makes the other person dig in more.
I don't know where you are getting comments that mocking of
others is ok, but the people who are saying it is ok are doing
it because they have lost the ability to formulate and
articulate their point of view in an effective manner and have
decided to instead result to mocking someone else to try and
discredit the other person's position.
[/quote]
The bolded green is exactly my point. There were a couple
posters in this thread even who appeared to be defending their
own mocking as justified in certain situations and I am pushing
back on that for the exact reasons you articulated.
#Post#: 39625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hypocrisy?
By: Tea Drinker Date: October 1, 2019, 11:39 am
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Tangentially to that, I think there are at least three kinds of
comments here:
(1) "You must be stupid to think that" -- never appropriate.
(2) "I disagree because $reason" -- almost always appropriate.
The exceptions are things like "I disagree, because $Politician
is evil" or "I disagree, because everyone knows that's a bad
idea." And those are basically longer forms of (1). They might
be okay if there's a reasonable answer to "not everyone, because
I don't. Why is it a bad idea?"
(3) "How can you support that person? He's well-known for
promoting bad policies, like X, Y, and Z." That's an edge case.
because possible answers would include "I didn't know that, let
me look into this" or "Actually, I'm in favor of X policy." That
conversation could lead to a reasonable discussion of the merits
and otherwise of X policy, or it could be a "this goes too far"
moment, like [invented example] "I am absolutely opposed to
painting sparrows blue and releasing them on the Common, it's
just wrong, and if you're a sparrow-painter I don't think we can
be friends."
If I said something like that, I'd know that the other person,
meanwhile, might be thinking that they can't really respect or
socialize with someone who is strongly opposed to
sparrow-painting. Because there are issues I would draw that
sort of line on, and I know that there are people who strongly
support the opposing side on those arguments. I might be
willing, perhaps even eager, to explain why I'm strongly
anti-sparrow-painting, while simultaneously feeling that if the
other person isn't convinced, I don't want to break bread with
them.
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