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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 37567--------------------------------------------------
Jewish Wedding?
By: Jem Date: August 27, 2019, 11:57 am
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I attended a Jewish wedding for the daughter of a coworker this
past Sunday. It was a black tie optional event, and the outdoor
ceremony was at 5:30 with “dinner and dancing to follow.”
The ceremony was lovely (it lasted just under half an hour), and
the reception began with some speeches and cocktails and apps
being passed, and then the dancing started. The father daughter
dance, the mother son dance, a wedding party and family group
dance, the chair dances.....and the dances were still going at
8:30. Salad had been served at perhaps 7:45 but there was
absolutely no indication that dinner was going to be served when
my husband and I said our goodbyes and left at 8:30ish.
Is this unusual or is this standard for a Jewish wedding on a
Sunday evening? It was a lovely ceremony and the band and
dancing was clearly being enjoyed......but what about the
phantom dinner? I am accustomed to dancing AFTER dinner is
served, not before!
#Post#: 37571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: DaDancingPsych Date: August 27, 2019, 12:59 pm
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I have not attending a lot of Jewish weddings, but my
experiences have not been like yours. The set-up was very
similar to Christian or non-religious events. Wedding.
Reception: Speeches. Dinner. Traditional Dances. Cake. Lotsa
Dancing.
I am, however, interested to hear from someone more accustomed
with the faith.
#Post#: 37572--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: lowspark Date: August 27, 2019, 1:24 pm
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I've been to a lot of Jewish weddings as I am Jewish. And no,
that's not typical. Sometimes they will do a couple of dances
like father-daughter & mother-son before dinner, but the bulk of
the speeches, dancing, cake cutting, etc. take place after the
meal.
Most of them go like this:
Wedding ceremony: ~30 minutes
Cocktails & hors d'oeuvre passed around while the wedding party
does pictures: ~45 min
Dining room is opened and people find their seats
Wedding party makes their way to the reception, culminating in
the arrival of the bride and groom
Often, the first dance happens here so that as soon as people
are done eating, they can begin dancing
A brief welcome speech and the blessing over the bread and wine
Dinner is served
Dancing, including the chair dance and other traditional dances
Cake cutting
A wedding at 5:30 would usually mean that dinner begins around
7:30ish, with salad, then main being served table by table if
it's a seated dinner.
#Post#: 37575--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Gellchom Date: August 27, 2019, 2:26 pm
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I bet I've been hundreds of Jewish weddings -- I'm married to a
Jewish clergyman. I live in a different part of the country
from lowspark, which may explain some of the small differences
in the way we see things usually done.
Sunday is a very usual day for a Jewish wedding, as we don't do
them on Friday night or until after sunset on Saturdays (which
makes a Saturday night in the summer pretty impossible).
I've seen pretty much the timeline that lowspark sets out, but
it's usually a little different in my community. The biggest
difference is that there is almost always dancing well before
the end of dinner and even before it's served -- in fact, often
the band or DJ is playing some great dance music as the doors
are opened for dinner and people come in from the cocktail hour.
(In our experience, that works great -- people put their place
cards and pocketbooks on their tables, the jackets and sometimes
the high heels come off, and the guests go to the dance floor
and dance for quite a while. Often we start with the hora and
other Jewish folk dances, in fact, and they can go on without a
break for a LONG time. It really gets the party going and
everyone feeling like a big, merry group. We saw that work so
well enough times that we did that at both our kids' weddings.)
We don't usually have so many "special" dances -- usually just
bride and groom, and father and daughter, which is joined by any
other combinations (mother son, etc.), and then spontaneously by
other close relatives. I never see a dance for attendants.
Toasts and speeches can come any time. I've never seen them
during the cocktail hour, as was done at the wedding you went
to; it seems like it undercuts the mingling function as well as
keeping people on their feet while they are listening, so maybe
that's why most people don't do it.
If I'm doing the math right, and assuming a 60 minute cocktail
hour (sometimes it's 45, sometimes 75 or 90), plus a few minutes
for moving everyone from ceremony to cocktail area and then to
dining room, you all were in the dining room at most 40 minutes
before the salad was served. That is a little longer than
usual, but if they were doing long horas and other "special"
dances before that, and people are into it (you said the
"dancing was clearly being enjoyed" at this wedding, which
usually means the band keeps going on the hora until they see it
dying down), it's not unusual, especially adding in a few
minutes for a welcome from the hosts and blessing the bread.
So it's not at all uncommon for dinner to start after quite a
while. It sounds like you felt this was poor hosting, and I
understand why, because it's not what you are used to, but it
isn't unusual for us. I bet you noticed everyone eating LOTS of
substantial appetizers during the cocktail hour! Did others
leave only 90 minutes into the dinner and dancing? I might have
worried that something was wrong; our receptions usually last at
least 3 hours after the cocktail hour.
Anyway, it sounds like you had a good time! Did you dance the
hora? Did you like the ceremony? Was it your first Jewish
wedding? What other differences did you notice?
#Post#: 37576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Jem Date: August 27, 2019, 3:02 pm
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[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1299.msg37575#msg37575
date=1566933993]
It sounds like you felt this was poor hosting, and I understand
why, because it's not what you are used to, but it isn't unusual
for us. I bet you noticed everyone eating LOTS of substantial
appetizers during the cocktail hour! Did others leave only 90
minutes into the dinner and dancing? I might have worried that
something was wrong; our receptions usually last at least 3
hours after the cocktail hour.
Anyway, it sounds like you had a good time! Did you dance the
hora? Did you like the ceremony? Was it your first Jewish
wedding? What other differences did you notice?
[/quote]
I wouldn't say "poor hosting" exactly. I was more curious about
the hosting, which is why I asked. I didn't notice what anyone
else was eating during the cocktail hour! The invitation said
"ceremony at half past five, dinner and dancing to follow" so I
just assumed it would be in that order (rather than dancing to
follow.....and maybe dinner eventually).
We left at 8:30 because there was no indication at all that
dinner was going to be served any time soon, and it had been
quite a while since the salad had been served and the salad
plates cleared. It appeared, to me, that we were firmly into the
dancing part of the evening, and I currently have a broken foot
so I was not about to dance. Also, no one I knew was dancing. I
wasn't really watching the clock, but it seemed to me that the
ceremony finished around 6:00, cocktails went until maybe 6:30,
and then it was speeches and dancing with the salad appearing at
maybe 7:45 (so an hour and fifteen minutes after we sat down for
dinner). After two hours of being seated for "dinner" with no
dinner in sight we decided to say our goodbyes and leave.
It was my first Jewish wedding, which is why I asked whether
this is typical. Had I known the bride or groom I may have
wanted to stay longer, but I was sitting with work friends I
have little in common with and the father of the brides' work
friends I have never met and likely won't ever meet again. After
two hours my husband and I just wanted to get home to eat
something and get prepared for the week ahead.
I don't usually stay out late on a Sunday evening, and this was
the wedding for the daughter of my work colleague. I had never
met the bride or groom before. There were two tables of people
who work with the parents of the bride, and we were seated at
one of those tables. No one from either of our tables danced
because none of us are Jewish and none of us had any idea what
was going on or whether "everyone" could dance or whether the
people dancing were all family. There was quite a bit of chatter
at the two work tables about what was happening, whether dinner
would be served, what we were supposed to be doing. There just
wasn't any communication and we were wondering aloud whether
they just forgot about dinner altogether, or maybe the salad WAS
the dinner.
I know that at least three other work couples left around the
time we did. It is unusual, in my experience, to be out partying
late into a Sunday night.
#Post#: 37592--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Rho Date: August 27, 2019, 9:53 pm
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The fact that the food wasn't served---or about to be served
anytime soon has nothing to do with religion. Perhaps region?
MY 1979 wedding, in a synagogue, had a color scheme of white.
Non Jewish work friends asked me if all Jewish weddings were
white. Nope--I despised the brown color that was popular that
season.
My sister moved to Long Island from Chicago. Parties there
start with dancing, salad, more dancing, a little more food,
more dancing, more food etc etc. I HATE all the waiting and
stress eat more than I should. Sometimes main course isn't
until 11:00 PM. When Sisters' daughter was married a few years
ago they had a Sunday morning wedding so guests could stay
longer and not worry about getting up for work the next day or
staying in a hotel an extra night.
When my college roommate had a Saturday morning Church wedding
and the party was a dinner---I had never heard of such long gaps
of time between events , or a party not in the same location as
the ceremony.
We all enjoy what we are used to.
#Post#: 37618--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Songbird Date: August 28, 2019, 10:37 am
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Typical Jewish wedding on Long Island: after the cocktail hour,
dinner begins with the introduction of the wedding party, the
first dance and the hora, followed by the blessing over the
food, the salad course, more dancing, then dinner, more dancing,
speeches and cake cutting, dessert, more dancing. The
father-daughter dance and mother-son dance take place later in
the evening -- I want to say after dinner has been served, but
it's been awhile since I went to a wedding, so I'm not certain.
#Post#: 37627--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Gellchom Date: August 28, 2019, 2:13 pm
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Well, there you are -- it's not uncommon for "dinner and dancing
to follow" to mean "dinner-and-dancing to follow," as opposed to
"dinner, and then dancing to follow." Of course it's not a
question of religion, just of community custom.
You write:
[quote]We left at 8:30 because there was no indication at all
that dinner was going to be served any time soon[/quote]although
you also said that the first course had been served. I'm not
sure what kind of "indication" you might have expected. Maybe
you could have asked one of the servers?
You write:
[quote]There were two tables of people who work with the parents
of the bride, and we were seated at one of those tables. No one
from either of our tables danced because none of us are Jewish
and none of us had any idea what was going on or whether
"everyone" could dance or whether the people dancing were all
family. There was quite a bit of chatter at the two work tables
about what was happening, whether dinner would be served, what
we were supposed to be doing. There just wasn't any
communication and we were wondering aloud whether they just
forgot about dinner altogether, or maybe the salad WAS the
dinner. [/quote]
I hear you! I, too, have been at life cycle events in other
people's communities where I didn't know what to expect (I
nearly jumped out of my skin at the end of a Catholic wedding
when a bagpipe suddenly blared out!) and wasn't always sure what
to do. We minorities are used to that experience; it makes
sense that majority members aren't accustomed to it. But it
never occurred to me that "there wasn't any communication" or
that there should have been, just because their community might
do things differently than I am used to. Sometimes I do some
research ahead of time, or I discreetly ask some "insider" any
questions I have. I know I am always happy to answer the
questions that non-Jewish guests have at a bar mitzvah, wedding,
or funeral. I'm sorry that you and your work colleagues didn't
feel comfortable asking someone about anything that was
confusing or unfamiliar. I am sure that the family would have
been delighted if you all had joined in the dancing! What a
shame that your foot was broken. I hope it was at least fun to
watch.
Once my parents were invited to a Cuban Jewish family's wedding
in Miami. Used to wedding ceremonies starting exactly on time,
they arrived a few minutes before the time on the invitation.
There were no other guests there, and the bridal party was still
in bathrobes and curlers! Nothing started for at least a couple
of hours. That's just how that community rolls.
At our Conservative Jewish congregation, a bar or bat mitzvah
invitation usually gives the time that services begin: 9:00 or
9:30. But unless they do a little research, some of the
non-Jewish guests don't realize that it's the synagogue's
regular Shabbat service, not a private event, and most people in
the congregation, whether or not they were invited for the
bar/bat mitzvah, don't come until at least 10:00 (the parts the
kid does don't come before then anyway), and the service goes
until around 12:10 (yes, people do go in and out to go to the
restroom, get a drink of water, etc.), and then there is lunch
for everyone.
Wow, the family invited two full tables of work colleagues, just
from the bride's side. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the
evening as much as you might have because you didn't realize
that the evening would go late and the schedule on which the
food might be served. Maybe just chalk it up to a chance to see
how other communities and cultures do things. It's fun to see
the variety. You should see an Israeli wedding -- this times
ten! And next time, you'll know what to expect -- you'll even
be able to help others.
Were there any things about the wedding ceremony that you
thought were interesting? What differences did you notice from
weddings in your community?
#Post#: 37630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Jem Date: August 28, 2019, 2:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1299.msg37627#msg37627
date=1567019583]
Well, there you are -- it's not uncommon for "dinner and dancing
to follow" to mean "dinner-and-dancing to follow," as opposed to
"dinner, and then dancing to follow." Of course it's not a
question of religion, just of community custom.
You seem to be taking an aggressive tone, and I am not sure why.
At any rate, that is why I asked. If by "community" you mean the
geographical region this is not typical, so I actually do think
it has something to do with the religion and the fact the
wedding was on a Sunday evening (which I understand is typical
for Jewish weddings).
You write:
[quote]We left at 8:30 because there was no indication at all
that dinner was going to be served any time soon[/quote]although
you also said that the first course had been served. I'm not
sure what kind of "indication" you might have expected. Maybe
you could have asked one of the servers?
In my experience, once a course is served and eaten and the
plates are cleared, the next course is on its way out relatively
soon thereafter. At most (all?) weddings I have been to the
dancing is after the food is served. Here, the entire wedding
party was on the dance floor and no one was being served the
next course so it seemed as though there was no intent to serve
the dinner any time soon. I wasn't expecting any indication of
anything, I was just surprised that it was not "dinner, then
dancing" as in common in the weddings I have attended during my
lifetime. Again, I am in no way saying this is "wrong." I posted
asking if this is typical or unusual for a Jewish wedding.
You write:
[quote]There were two tables of people who work with the parents
of the bride, and we were seated at one of those tables. No one
from either of our tables danced because none of us are Jewish
and none of us had any idea what was going on or whether
"everyone" could dance or whether the people dancing were all
family. There was quite a bit of chatter at the two work tables
about what was happening, whether dinner would be served, what
we were supposed to be doing. There just wasn't any
communication and we were wondering aloud whether they just
forgot about dinner altogether, or maybe the salad WAS the
dinner. [/quote]
I hear you! I, too, have been at life cycle events in other
people's communities where I didn't know what to expect (I
nearly jumped out of my skin at the end of a Catholic wedding
when a bagpipe suddenly blared out!) and wasn't always sure what
to do. We minorities are used to that experience; it makes
sense that majority members aren't accustomed to it. But it
never occurred to me that "there wasn't any communication" or
that there should have been, just because their community might
do things differently than I am used to. Sometimes I do some
research ahead of time, or I discreetly ask some "insider" any
questions I have. I know I am always happy to answer the
questions that non-Jewish guests have at a bar mitzvah, wedding,
or funeral. I'm sorry that you and your work colleagues didn't
feel comfortable asking someone about anything that was
confusing or unfamiliar. I am sure that the family would have
been delighted if you all had joined in the dancing! What a
shame that your foot was broken. I hope it was at least fun to
watch.
Again, I am confused by your aggressive and seemingly sarcastic
tone. I wasn't expecting this wedding to be the same as weddings
I typically have attended; I asked whether this sequence of
events was typical or unusual for a Jewish wedding. And yes, it
was very fun to watch! My coworker's toddler-aged granddaughter
was clearly having the time of her life dancing, and it was a
lot of fun to see all the people being hoisted in the chairs,
including my coworker and her husband! The dance floor was
packed, so even if I had been able to dance I would have
struggled for space.
Once my parents were invited to a Cuban Jewish family's wedding
in Miami. Used to wedding ceremonies starting exactly on time,
they arrived a few minutes before the time on the invitation.
There were no other guests there, and the bridal party was still
in bathrobes and curlers! Nothing started for at least a couple
of hours. That's just how that community rolls.
At our Conservative Jewish congregation, a bar or bat mitzvah
invitation usually gives the time that services begin: 9:00 or
9:30. But unless they do a little research, some of the
non-Jewish guests don't realize that it's the synagogue's
regular Shabbat service, not a private event, and most people in
the congregation, whether or not they were invited for the
bar/bat mitzvah, don't come until at least 10:00 (the parts the
kid does don't come before then anyway), and the service goes
until around 12:10 (yes, people do go in and out to go to the
restroom, get a drink of water, etc.), and then there is lunch
for everyone.
Wow, the family invited two full tables of work colleagues, just
from the bride's side. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the
evening as much as you might have because you didn't realize
that the evening would go late and the schedule on which the
food might be served. Maybe just chalk it up to a chance to see
how other communities and cultures do things. It's fun to see
the variety. You should see an Israeli wedding -- this times
ten! And next time, you'll know what to expect -- you'll even
be able to help others.
Again, I am not sure where you got the bolded from. I did enjoy
the evening, I just decided to leave at 8:30 (as did several
other people)*. My posting here was not "this was a horrible
wedding" but instead, "is this typically what happens or was
this unusual."
Were there any things about the wedding ceremony that you
thought were interesting? What differences did you notice from
weddings in your community?
[/quote]
See my comments in green.
*As an aside, my husband is often the officiant at weddings I
attend, almost always on Saturday evenings, and it is quite
common for us to leave around 8:30 pm or thereabout because he
has to preach early the next morning. So we kept to the same
schedule on this wedding, actually.
#Post#: 37632--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jewish Wedding?
By: Gellchom Date: August 28, 2019, 3:18 pm
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Oh, Jem, I am so sorry that anything came across as sarcastic or
aggressive. I absolutely didn't mean it that way! That's the
risk of no tone when writing on line.
I totally relate to the experience of things not going as I am
used to, and I really did feel sorry that that might have
lessened your enjoyment of that wedding a bit. You didn't do
anything wrong at all. I was just worried that you might have
thought that your hosts were being rude to their guests with
their food service schedule. And, right, you did not say you
didn't enjoy the wedding -- as I wrote above, I was saying only
that I was sorry that you seemed not to have enjoyed it as much
as you might have if things had gone the way you are used to.
That's all.
By "community," I meant both ethnic and geographic. In my
experience, Jewish wedding receptions in Ohio and California are
likely to be a little different, but they are usually more
similar to each other than Jewish and non-Jewish weddings in
Ohio, for example.
Anyway, I apologize for how my posts came across and made you
feel. You are a favorite poster!
I am still wondering what you thought of the ceremony.
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