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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 38472--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Meg1079 Date: September 10, 2019, 2:46 pm
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I wanted to come out of lurkdom to say that sometimes there is a
reason people can't get married or live together. My other half
has spina bifida and when we moved in together the government
took away his disability benefits, saying that together our
income was too high. My other half and I are lucky right now
because both of us are working and have pretty decent benefits
through our jobs, but others are not so lucky. I do know people
in the disabled community who will never live with or marry
their significant others because the government will take away
what little benefits they have. Not trying to be snarky, but
just wanted to point out another side that abled-bodied people
may not see.
#Post#: 38476--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: chigger Date: September 10, 2019, 4:07 pm
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[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38472#msg38472
date=1568144775]
I wanted to come out of lurkdom to say that sometimes there is a
reason people can't get married or live together. My other half
has spina bifida and when we moved in together the government
took away his disability benefits, saying that together our
income was too high. My other half and I are lucky right now
because both of us are working and have pretty decent benefits
through our jobs, but others are not so lucky. I do know people
in the disabled community who will never live with or marry
their significant others because the government will take away
what little benefits they have. Not trying to be snarky, but
just wanted to point out another side that abled-bodied people
may not see.
[/quote]
I have seen this several times, and I've seen it many times
with seniors . Would like to be married, but can't afford it.
#Post#: 38487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Gellchom Date: September 10, 2019, 10:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38472#msg38472
date=1568144775]
I wanted to come out of lurkdom to say that sometimes there is a
reason people can't get married or live together. My other half
has spina bifida and when we moved in together the government
took away his disability benefits, saying that together our
income was too high. My other half and I are lucky right now
because both of us are working and have pretty decent benefits
through our jobs, but others are not so lucky. I do know people
in the disabled community who will never live with or marry
their significant others because the government will take away
what little benefits they have. Not trying to be snarky, but
just wanted to point out another side that abled-bodied people
may not see.
[/quote]
I completely agree. This is a perfect example of what I meant by
“There are many other kinds of cases that just about anyone
would agree should be treated as social units.”
#Post#: 38503--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Meg1079 Date: September 11, 2019, 9:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1288.msg38487#msg38487
date=1568171957]
[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38472#msg38472
date=1568144775]
I wanted to come out of lurkdom to say that sometimes there is a
reason people can't get married or live together. My other half
has spina bifida and when we moved in together the government
took away his disability benefits, saying that together our
income was too high. My other half and I are lucky right now
because both of us are working and have pretty decent benefits
through our jobs, but others are not so lucky. I do know people
in the disabled community who will never live with or marry
their significant others because the government will take away
what little benefits they have. Not trying to be snarky, but
just wanted to point out another side that abled-bodied people
may not see.
[/quote]
I completely agree. This is a perfect example of what I meant by
“There are many other kinds of cases that just about anyone
would agree should be treated as social units.”
[/quote]
I'm so sorry, I went back to re-read your post and I see that
now! After a while it feels like people are being bashed for not
getting married, and I wanted to point out that there can be
good reasons why. And, honestly, if someone doesn't want to get
married "just because they don't", I respect that, too. If
someone didn't want to treat my other half and I as a social
unit just because we aren't married, I would have no issues
cutting that person out of my life or, at least limiting
contact. Luckily, the people we know don't seem to think that
way. :)
#Post#: 38505--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Jem Date: September 11, 2019, 9:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38503#msg38503
date=1568211170]
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1288.msg38487#msg38487
date=1568171957]
[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38472#msg38472
date=1568144775]
I wanted to come out of lurkdom to say that sometimes there is a
reason people can't get married or live together. My other half
has spina bifida and when we moved in together the government
took away his disability benefits, saying that together our
income was too high. My other half and I are lucky right now
because both of us are working and have pretty decent benefits
through our jobs, but others are not so lucky. I do know people
in the disabled community who will never live with or marry
their significant others because the government will take away
what little benefits they have. Not trying to be snarky, but
just wanted to point out another side that abled-bodied people
may not see.
[/quote]
I completely agree. This is a perfect example of what I meant by
“There are many other kinds of cases that just about anyone
would agree should be treated as social units.”
[/quote]
I'm so sorry, I went back to re-read your post and I see that
now! After a while it feels like people are being bashed for not
getting married, and I wanted to point out that there can be
good reasons why. And, honestly, if someone doesn't want to get
married "just because they don't", I respect that, too. If
someone didn't want to treat my other half and I as a social
unit just because we aren't married, I would have no issues
cutting that person out of my life or, at least limiting
contact. Luckily, the people we know don't seem to think that
way. :)
[/quote]
I think for a lot of people the issue is expecting to be treated
the same as married people when people have made the decision
NOT to marry for whatever reason. I don't think anyone needs to
validate or defend their choices to anyone else. I think they
just need to own it.
It's kinda like people who say, "A degree is just a piece of
paper. I know way more than this guy with a PhD and I never went
to college." It could very well be true that the high school
graduate is smarter than the PhD, or knows more about a
particular subject. But the high school graduate is NOT a PhD.
Pointing that fact out is not saying the high school graduate
isn't smart. It is saying she is not a PhD.
#Post#: 38507--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Meg1079 Date: September 11, 2019, 10:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1288.msg38505#msg38505
date=1568212668]
I think for a lot of people the issue is expecting to be treated
the same as married people when people have made the decision
NOT to marry for whatever reason. I don't think anyone needs to
validate or defend their choices to anyone else. I think they
just need to own it.
It's kinda like people who say, "A degree is just a piece of
paper. I know way more than this guy with a PhD and I never went
to college." It could very well be true that the high school
graduate is smarter than the PhD, or knows more about a
particular subject. But the high school graduate is NOT a PhD.
Pointing that fact out is not saying the high school graduate
isn't smart. It is saying she is not a PhD.
[/quote]
But some days it does feel like people do need to defend their
decision not to get married. I'm seeing a lot of that attitude
here: don't expect to be treated the same as a married couple if
you choose not to get married. I've seen other people post (not
necessarily here) that they would consider someone in a
relationship single because they had not married their other
half, even if they've been in a committed relationship for
years. I'm only pointing out that some people are unable to get
married (or even move in with their spouse) because of financial
issues that are no fault of theirs. Unless I've been misreading
everything, in which case I apologize.
#Post#: 38509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Jem Date: September 11, 2019, 10:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38507#msg38507
date=1568214344]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1288.msg38505#msg38505
date=1568212668]
I think for a lot of people the issue is expecting to be treated
the same as married people when people have made the decision
NOT to marry for whatever reason. I don't think anyone needs to
validate or defend their choices to anyone else. I think they
just need to own it.
It's kinda like people who say, "A degree is just a piece of
paper. I know way more than this guy with a PhD and I never went
to college." It could very well be true that the high school
graduate is smarter than the PhD, or knows more about a
particular subject. But the high school graduate is NOT a PhD.
Pointing that fact out is not saying the high school graduate
isn't smart. It is saying she is not a PhD.
[/quote]
But some days it does feel like people do need to defend their
decision not to get married. I'm seeing a lot of that attitude
here: don't expect to be treated the same as a married couple if
you choose not to get married. I've seen other people post (not
necessarily here) that they would consider someone in a
relationship single because they had not married their other
half, even if they've been in a committed relationship for
years. I'm only pointing out that some people are unable to get
married (or even move in with their spouse) because of financial
issues that are no fault of theirs. Unless I've been misreading
everything, in which case I apologize.
[/quote]
Regarding the green: I don't think that people who choose, for
whatever reason, not to get married should be treated poorly or
as though their relationships are not genuine. But I think even
in your own examples people have chosen NOT to be married
precisely because they DON'T want to be treated as a married
couple. The entire reason to choose to NOT be married is to
avoid being treated as a married couple. Being married simply is
NOT the same as NOT being married.
Regarding the red, I personally would not consider a person
"single" in the sense of "this person does not have a
significant other," but I also would not consider them to be
"married" if they are not. For government purposes I think a
person would be considered "single," because there is no option
of "well, I've been with my boyfriend for 10 years and we are
committed to each other but we are choosing not to marry." Valid
choices, but in fact a choice to NOT marry.
Unless I am somehow personally invested in the relationship, I
don't really care what someone chooses. I just am accurate when
describing it.
Regarding the purple, I personally don't feel I need to justify
my choices to anyone other than people those choices affect (if
then). So long as I am comfortable with my choices, I wouldn't
feel the need to justify them to people whose opinion I don't
value. So I guess if you feel the need to explain your choices
(general you) to people that is totally fine, but I don't think
there is a generally expected need for you (general) to do so.
Just live and let live.
#Post#: 38513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Meg1079 Date: September 11, 2019, 10:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1288.msg38509#msg38509
date=1568215033]
[quote author=Meg1079 link=topic=1288.msg38507#msg38507
date=1568214344]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=1288.msg38505#msg38505
date=1568212668]
I think for a lot of people the issue is expecting to be treated
the same as married people when people have made the decision
NOT to marry for whatever reason. I don't think anyone needs to
validate or defend their choices to anyone else. I think they
just need to own it.
It's kinda like people who say, "A degree is just a piece of
paper. I know way more than this guy with a PhD and I never went
to college." It could very well be true that the high school
graduate is smarter than the PhD, or knows more about a
particular subject. But the high school graduate is NOT a PhD.
Pointing that fact out is not saying the high school graduate
isn't smart. It is saying she is not a PhD.
[/quote]
For the most part, I don't see the need to justify my decision
not to get married, especially to people that I don't really
know. I've never had anyone not invite my other half to
something because we aren't married. The people we know have
always treated us as a social unit. I do feel badly for those in
the disabled community who would love to get married to their
other half, but can't because they need their benefits. If I had
known that the government would take away my other half's
disability benefits because we moved in together, I don't know
if we would have moved in together. I think it's something that
needs to change, but that's a government issue and not an
etiquette issue!
But some days it does feel like people do need to defend their
decision not to get married. I'm seeing a lot of that attitude
here: don't expect to be treated the same as a married couple if
you choose not to get married. I've seen other people post (not
necessarily here) that they would consider someone in a
relationship single because they had not married their other
half, even if they've been in a committed relationship for
years. I'm only pointing out that some people are unable to get
married (or even move in with their spouse) because of financial
issues that are no fault of theirs. Unless I've been misreading
everything, in which case I apologize.
[/quote]
Regarding the green: I don't think that people who choose, for
whatever reason, not to get married should be treated poorly or
as though their relationships are not genuine. But I think even
in your own examples people have chosen NOT to be married
precisely because they DON'T want to be treated as a married
couple. The entire reason to choose to NOT be married is to
avoid being treated as a married couple. Being married simply is
NOT the same as NOT being married.
Regarding the red, I personally would not consider a person
"single" in the sense of "this person does not have a
significant other," but I also would not consider them to be
"married" if they are not. For government purposes I think a
person would be considered "single," because there is no option
of "well, I've been with my boyfriend for 10 years and we are
committed to each other but we are choosing not to marry." Valid
choices, but in fact a choice to NOT marry.
Unless I am somehow personally invested in the relationship, I
don't really care what someone chooses. I just am accurate when
describing it.
Regarding the purple, I personally don't feel I need to justify
my choices to anyone other than people those choices affect (if
then). So long as I am comfortable with my choices, I wouldn't
feel the need to justify them to people whose opinion I don't
value. So I guess if you feel the need to explain your choices
(general you) to people that is totally fine, but I don't think
there is a generally expected need for you (general) to do so.
Just live and let live.
[/quote]
For the most part, I don't see the need to justify my decision
not to get married, especially to people that I don't really
know. I've never had anyone not invite my other half to
something because we aren't married. The people we know have
always treated us as a social unit. I do feel badly for those in
the disabled community who would love to get married to their
other half, but can't because they need their benefits. If I had
known that the government would take away my other half's
disability benefits because we moved in together, I don't know
if we would have done that. I think it's something that needs to
change, but that's a government issue and not an etiquette
issue!
#Post#: 38524--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Hanna Date: September 11, 2019, 12:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Meg1079 thank you for bringing this up. I really don't like
the judgy side of old school etiquette.
#Post#: 38532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Doing away with the wedding breakfast
By: Gellchom Date: September 11, 2019, 2:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=1288.msg38524#msg38524
date=1568223856]
Meg1079 thank you for bringing this up. I really don't like
the judgy side of old school etiquette.
[/quote]
I think we may be talking past each other in this conversation.
Some people are making the point that the etiquette definition
of "social unit" is precisely for the purpose of AVOIDING making
judgments about others' relationships.
The perceived "judgment" only happens if people forget that the
categories recognized by etiquette as "social units" is only a
baseline of people who MUST be invited together to weddings and
dinner parties, regardless of any circumstances or judgments,
not the only people who will fall into that category based on
individual circumstances. It's a social category, not a legal
one, and really it only ever comes into play for hosts inviting
people to that limited category of events.
It does NOT mean that no other couples can or should be treated
as social units. I find it hard to imagine that people would
not treat a couple in the situation Meg1079 describes as a
social unit -- as Meg reports that all of their friends do. And
we can all think of lots of other examples. My mother and her
boyfriend now live together, but even before they did, they had
been socializing as a solid couple, including hosting parties
together. Everyone always invited them together to
dinners/weddings/etc. I think most people would agree that for
such cases, it is not only considerate to invite the "other," it
would be rude not to do so. As opposed to, say, a wedding host
wondering if etiquette requires them to invite someone that a
guest has been dating for a little while, even exclusively, even
madly in love. It just doesn't (although they may choose to
invite them anyway).
In the other direction, we have seen married people try to
overextend the principle, claiming that they aren't being
treated as a social unit if they are seated separately, if only
one is in a wedding party, if a spouse isn't welcome at the
other spouse's book group, if one spouse isn't included in the
other's office party or a baby shower, etc. That's just
ridiculous. They are entitled to their feelings, of course, but
there is certainly no etiquette requirement.
It just isn't that major a thing. It just means that etiquette
requires inviting ALL married, engaged, or cohabiting couples
together to a limited list of events. It does not meant that
other couples should not be treated the same way, too -- just
that for all others, because there isn't a bright line category,
you go on a case-by-case basis.
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