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#Post#: 33535--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: TootsNYC Date: June 26, 2019, 6:46 pm
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there is an argument to be made that is it *presumptuous* to
invite someone to your wedding whom you do not know well.
Our culture assumes that wedding invitations bring a bit of an
obligation (OK, sure, they're not an invoice; but we also expect
people to give a present and to travel, etc.).
So inviting people you aren't close to is often seen as a gift
grab.
Tell Grandma you aren't going to invite them, because that would
be presumptuous of you, but that you will drop them a note to
let them know, or send them an announcement (which is formal, so
maybe that's good; but some people see them as gift grabs and
don't realize that couples who send announcements have read
etiquette books and therefore know that gifts are not expected
w/ announcements).
#Post#: 34015--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: violinp Date: July 6, 2019, 6:08 pm
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Hi! OP here. Sorry for not updating sooner - I had to switch
computers unexpectedly, and it's been a time trying to get all
my accounts on this computer.
Regarding my great - uncle and great - aunt...most of the
siblings will not be able to be there, in all likelihood. Uncle
Roy (Gran's brother) is dying of cancer (had 6 months to live in
early June, so I would *never* expect him or his wife to make
interstate travel in October), Uncle Gene (her BIL) is
completely blind, and his wife had a bad fall that it took a
while to recover from. Uncle Ed, Gramps' brother, had polio as a
kid, and hasn't traveled out of state in decades, and his wife
is not very mobile herself. My Aunt Wendy, his sister, will
probably be there, since she's in good health for her age. So,
out of a possible 9 people, probably 3 will show up, though I
would be over the moon if any of them did make it despite their
health issues.
[quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=1190.msg33535#msg33535
date=1561592805]
there is an argument to be made that is it *presumptuous* to
invite someone to your wedding whom you do not know well.
Our culture assumes that wedding invitations bring a bit of an
obligation (OK, sure, they're not an invoice; but we also expect
people to give a present and to travel, etc.).
So inviting people you aren't close to is often seen as a gift
grab.
Tell Grandma you aren't going to invite them, because that would
be presumptuous of you, but that you will drop them a note to
let them know, or send them an announcement (which is formal, so
maybe that's good; but some people see them as gift grabs and
don't realize that couples who send announcements have read
etiquette books and therefore know that gifts are not expected
w/ announcements).
[/quote]
Also, this - thanks, Toots. ;D I can tell Gran, "Gran, I
appreciate that Vic and Ida want an invite, but I haven't
actually seen or spoken to them since sixth grade, so it would
be weird to invite them. I'll sure send them an announcement,
though!"
I agree with Contrarian that, while Gramps is a mean old coot,
his beliefs are genuine - he does believe I have separated
myself from the fullness of truth, and so he was very upset with
me, and later Cabbage, for that. He also happens to believe we
converted to personally hurt him, as the man who baptized us,
and our late mother, who raised us in the faith (Dad was
agnostic when we were kids). Obviously, that's nonsense, and
abusive as all - get out to even entertain saying, but that was
his reaction to us.
Also, when I last saw them in person (before I moved to be with
Double Bass) Gramps was all miffed he didn't get to meet Double
Bass and personally approve of our relationship. :o ??? I'll
give y'all a minute to process that....But, yeah, that
interaction pretty much sums up our entire relationship since I
was 14 - assume I'm too dumb to make my own decisions and need
him to personally say grace over anything and everything I do or
decide. Oh, and I'm a liar for not discussing my religious
questions with him and just researching on my own. The church he
and Gran go to doesn't even let women speak at adult Sunday
School classes, so it's not really a shock to me (I forgot one
time, and made an interjection, because Gramps was leading the
discussion, and all the men whipped around like I'd just said
something blasphemous).
This decisions is also really hard, because I DO have good
interactions with Gran, and some with Gramps - it's just that
all the good memories with Gramps were in 8th grade and before,
before I knew he was an alcoholic. And, if Mom were alive, she
would insist they be invited for family unity, and be the one
brokering peace between us, because family togetherness was so
important to her, though I know part of that would have been
toxicity and abuse forming her brain, more afraid to leave and
forge out on her own than admit her family can't hold together
without being super messed up and tolerating Gramps, no matter
what he says and does.
The other thing is that they are medically frail, to an extent.
Gramps is recovering from a pacemaker being put in (which he
insisted he didn't need until he passed out three times while
Gran and he were home alone), and Gran has a very hard time
getting around - even steps can be a trial for her. So, they may
not even be able to make it, though Gran said, if Gramps heals
on schedule, they should be able to come.
With that in mind, I have decided to still invite them, but
calling them beforehand to explain the situation, saying
essentially this:
"I know I haven't broached this topic yet, but I feel it's
necessary to discuss this in the open. I know my conversion, and
Cabbage's, upset you both, and Gramps in particular. However, we
want to make this clear: We are Catholic. Double Bass' and my
ceremony will be a Nuptial Mass. If you feel it's going to be
too much to see me and Cabbage participate in a Mass, I am sad,
but I understand. If you come, we don't want any disparagement
of our faith. We know you believe differently than we do, but we
also want our choices respected on our wedding day."
What say you all? Does that hold muster?
[quote author=Gellchom link=topic=1190.msg33452#msg33452
date=1561495896]
*snip*
As to the wine ceremony -- I want to change my earlier answer.
If you don't pour it in front of everyone (or if it's an
integral part of the ceremony, maybe you could pour it from a
jug, not the bottle; then it's not even obvious what it is), I
think it's fine. Or if you can use grape juice or something,
will that work? I know that's what we do in Jewish wine
ceremonies when there are kids or alcoholics involved. I think
I have heard that churches that do communion can use grape
juice, too, but I'm not sure -- I'm sure someone here knows.
[/quote]
I talked it over with Double Bass - he really does want to use
something alcoholic, but understands that 1.) I cannot drink
hard liquor and 2.) it would be kinda tacky to wave it in
people's faces, especially given Gramps' alcoholism. We're going
to buy some canned mead and pour it in the cup out of sight.
That also cuts down on the possible waste of good booze, since
mead is relatively cheap, and you can just not open a can if you
don't need it.
We use wine in Communion, but the people only consume the wafers
at Mass at our parish, and the priest alone drinks from the cup.
#Post#: 34037--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: jpcher Date: July 7, 2019, 3:42 am
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I think you're on the right track, violinp.
It's a lot to sort out with a long background/history with these
people and you've been getting good advice here.
I like your wording to Gran and Gramp. Can you talk to them both
at the same time? Instead of putting Gran in the middle? So that
Gramp hears the (stern! yet loving ;)) words directly from you?
Vic and Ida? I agree with TootsNYC.
Inviting all the other relatives? Remember, this is not Gran's
family reunion. It is your wedding. Invite whomever you choose.
Stay strong violinp!
#Post#: 34062--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Copper Horsewoman Date: July 7, 2019, 8:58 pm
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You have gotten great advice from the other members, and I just
want to say, may you have a lovely wedding and many happy years
together.
#Post#: 34121--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: mime Date: July 8, 2019, 6:33 pm
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It's easy for us to sit here, removed from the situation and say
"don't invite them! don't invite them!" but you have all the
complexities of the real relationships and history to navigate,
and I totally understand your choice to invite them to your
wedding. :)
If I may make one further suggestion: consider letting a trusted
friend or two know that Gramp's behavior can be unpredictable,
and have them act as an advocate, ready to run interference for
you?
I hope your wedding is absolutely wonderful and worry-free for
both of you!
#Post#: 34267--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: jpcher Date: July 10, 2019, 4:35 pm
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[quote author=pjeans link=topic=1190.msg34121#msg34121
date=1562628815]
If I may make one further suggestion: consider letting a trusted
friend or two know that Gramp's behavior can be unpredictable,
and have them act as an advocate, ready to run interference for
you?
[/quote]
I really like this thought. Taking the stress off of you and
your fiancee.
#Post#: 36169--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Nikko-chan Date: August 7, 2019, 7:44 pm
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I like your wording, violin p. And i might add: "And if you find
you cannot behave on my wedding day, or if Gramps gets into it
with anyone, he WILL be escorted out." Or something similar. And
if Gramps does get up to shenanigans have a designated someone
follow through on that policy.
#Post#: 36176--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: lakey Date: August 7, 2019, 10:54 pm
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Your plans and your wording sound good. In my family, not
inviting a grandparent would be considered pretty extreme. I had
an uncle who was a serious alcoholic. He was sometimes pretty
ornery when he was drunk. When one of his children got married,
there was a lot of concern about how he would act. He managed
to behave himself through the church service and the reception.
It sounds like you are making the decisions that are best for
you and your fiance, who sounds like a wonderful person.
[quote]This decisions is also really hard, because I DO have
good interactions with Gran, and some with Gramps - it's just
that all the good memories with Gramps were in 8th grade and
before, before I knew he was an alcoholic.[/quote] That almost
made me cry. One of the hardest things about growing up is
finding out that the adults in your life have feet of clay. It
really hurts to see someone you respected behave the way
substance abusers behave.
#Post#: 36226--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Chez Miriam Date: August 8, 2019, 1:18 pm
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[quote author=lakey link=topic=1190.msg36176#msg36176
date=1565236471]
Your plans and your wording sound good. In my family, not
inviting a grandparent would be considered pretty extreme. I had
an uncle who was a serious alcoholic. He was sometimes pretty
ornery when he was drunk. When one of his children got married,
there was a lot of concern about how he would act. He managed
to behave himself through the church service and the reception.
It sounds like you are making the decisions that are best for
you and your fiance, who sounds like a wonderful person.
[quote]This decisions is also really hard, because I DO have
good interactions with Gran, and some with Gramps - it's just
that all the good memories with Gramps were in 8th grade and
before, before I knew he was an alcoholic.[/quote] That almost
made me cry. One of the hardest things about growing up is
finding out that the adults in your life have feet of clay. It
really hurts to see someone you respected behave the way
substance abusers behave.
[/quote]
Is there someone who could have a word with Gramps, and say that
"violinp loves you, but when you have a drink, your behaviour
could be enough to make her want to leave you out of her
wedding"? It won't change his behaviour, but if he could stay
off the alcohol for a while, at least you might have better
memories if he does attend.
I have known a few serious drinkers who can stay sober for
most/all of an evening [not sure they'd make it to midnight].
Knowing they needed to, did make a difference. Your Gramps may
be too far gone for that to be an option.
#Post#: 37461--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: violinp Date: August 25, 2019, 8:47 pm
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Hi, everyone!
I'm sorry I haven't updated in a long time - wedding planning
has gotten super crazy!
I did have a talk with Gran and Gramps, with Double Bass there
in case they decided to get nasty. I decided not to even bring
up the stickiness of my great - uncle and great - aunt not being
invited, and focus on their personal behavior. This is the gist
of what I said:
"I just wanted to make sure you knew Double Bass and I will be
having a Catholic wedding Mass. I know my conversion was hard on
you, so I just wanted to make sure you knew that. And, because
of comments you've made in the past, I wanted to make sure it
was clear disparagement of our faith will not be tolerated."
They seemed...taken aback. My grandma made noises of "Of course
it's your wedding. We wouldn't choose it, but it's your wedding,
so..." and I got off the phone feeling okay...
And then the PA texts from Gran came in. How could I think they
would do that? They would always respect me... yadda yadda. All
hogwash I've heard before that means basically nothing, because
Gramps is allowed to run roughshod no matter what and no one
addresses the elephant in the room. I was annoyed, but expected
it.
But apparently Uncle Ted got in on the fray too. I sent out
texts to both Uncle Bill and Uncle Ted, and Uncle Ted felt the
need to scold me for talking to my grandparents that way,
because "you know your grandma loves you, right?" and "well,
your grandpa is Lutheran, so you have to expect that kind of
talk from him" Not. Even. Kidding. Yes, I told him exactly what
his father said to me. Keeping the peace is more important than
being honest about what cruelty is, I guess. :'(
I felt like a massive failure, like all I'd done was just make
the entire family mad at me, and accomplished nothing other than
pot - stirring. But Double Bass was not having that.
He said, "I am immensely proud of you for what you did. You said
exactly what you needed to say, and you didn't get emotional -
you just set your boundaries. As far as I'm concerned, today was
a victory. You were far classier to them than I would have been.
You knew what the worst case scenario could have been - them all
immediately cutting you off. And that didn't happen. So what if
they're mad? That just proves you're right."
And, as much as he's right...I still feel bad for making them
mad at me, and for disrupting the peace. Does that make sense?
And now Double Bass has his own family drama to deal with. His
parents nearly had a hissy over having skull table decorations
and almost threatened not to come to the reception. Of all the
childish things...at least we're bonding over boneheaded family.
We decided to just forgo saying anything about Vic and Ida
unless asked. There's no reason to pre-emptively poke the bear,
and if Gran gets mad, oh well. It's likely that Gramps is far
too frail to make the trip up here anyway, and Gran won't go
without him if he's that frail (which I totally understand and
would probably do the same in her position), so they may not
even be able to be here and pass judgement.
Something else that affects things - my dad got remarried this
year. My grandparents have never met his wife, and didn't know
he was seeing someone...because his now-wife is close to my age
and Jewish. My agnostic dad has converted to Judaism because of
her, and they're really good together...but my grandparents
would be hateful toward her because of her age and religion. If
my grandparents come, my dad will come, but not bring his wife.
If they don't come...Dad and his wife will both come. To be
perfectly honest, I would prefer my dad and his wife both over
my crazy grandparents, as well as think Dad is childish for not
at least not telling them he's dating and then married, but he's
an adult, and I am not going to parent my own father. I secretly
hope my grandparents have to send their regrets because I feel
as though it would be much more enjoyable and less tense dancing
around things, but I don't get to pick and choose those things.
Again, thank you all for your advice! Now I just need to worry
about making sure my dress fits and that everything's set for
the ceremony and reception. I can't believe that tomorrow is 2
months until my wedding!
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