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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 32968--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: MiriamCatriona Date: June 16, 2019, 4:03 pm
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1. This is a case where it's okay to invite Grandma without
Grandpa. Keep your explanation very simple. "I am not able to
welcome Grandpa due to his past behavior. Would you like me to
hire a caretaker to bring you, or would you prefer to arrange to
come with Uncle Bill or Uncle Ted?" If/when she tries to argue,
calmly state that you are not going to discuss it but hope she
will attend.
2. Don't invite Vic and Ida. If Grandma asks, tell her that
you were not able to extend the guest list to include distant
relatives you haven't seen in many years and don't maintain a
relationship with. As above, deflect and avoid getting caught
up in defending your position.
3. If you use wine in the ceremony, you have to offer it to
everyone. (Regardless of what beverage you choose, it needs to
be available to your guests.) How about sparkling water? Or
using wine but doing it privately rather than at the main
ceremony?
#Post#: 32972--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Hanna Date: June 16, 2019, 6:57 pm
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Most of my friends would find it rude not to serve alcohol at a
wedding. Sad but true!
However, I asked a friend and we both agreed; A ceremonial drink
of wine for the bride and groom is not the same as drinking wine
all night and not sharing with your guests. We think you should
use the wine for the quaich.
#Post#: 33011--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: cabbagegirl Date: June 17, 2019, 6:16 pm
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Hey, everybody! It's cabbage - I know, long time since I've been
around. :-[
(bold text mine)
[quote author=pjeans link=topic=1190.msg32900#msg32900
date=1560545451]
If your grandfather believes Catholics are akin to the devil
rather than "brothers and sisters in Christ" and intends to
treat them as such, then he has no business there. If your
grandmother is content to sit by him and allow that, then she
has no place there, either. The same is true for Vic and Ida,
who are not strangers, but actually known to be hostile to you.
I get that Gran is going to have some feelings over this, but it
is not up to you to use YOUR wedding and YOUR day to appease the
bullies and jerks in your family for her sake. Her expecting
that you do this is not even close to reasonable, or kind.
You and your fiancee should be surrounded by people who love you
and support you and wish the best for you. Not people you feel
obliged to include who don't even care about you. They removed
themselves from the circle of "your family" by their choices and
actions.
[/quote]
First to the bold text: I totally agree, and this is what Double
Bass and I have been saying to her
The rub is that he wants to be seen as the grand family
patriarch that everyone seeks and consults, but then acts in
such a way that no one wants to do so because they know exactly
the kind of advice they're going to get: my way or I'll make you
want to run to the highway after I call you everything but your
given name. He wants to pretend like we love him so much, mainly
because he doesn't know we know about how he treated our mom and
her siblings when they were kids. So it's not so much that he
wants to attend the Catholic ceremony as he wants to make sure
he's there for violinp's Big Life Event. She's also the first
grandkid (out of 3) to get married, so it's a big deal.
Additionally, Gran won't attend without Gramps not just because
of health but because it "looks bad". For better or worse,
appearances have meant a lot on Mom's side of the family, and
even the appearance of a divided front would start the family
gossip mill. We've all catered to the fantasy to keep Gran from
crying, but honestly Mom was the big peacekeeper of a lot of
this, and I'm not sure how much longer the dam is going to hold
before it breaks, especially after the level of nasty I got on
my last visit with them.
I'm her MOH, so whatever she does, I'm going to support her,
whether that means fielding phone calls from them, or keeping
Gramps' face full of baked potato, or physically escorting him
out.
#Post#: 33013--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: violinp Date: June 17, 2019, 6:56 pm
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[quote author=Bada link=topic=1190.msg32912#msg32912
date=1560560034]
*IF* your grandpa does make it, don't make Double Bass be the
one who has to kick him out. Appoint a groomsman or uncle or
someone to be the bouncer. That way you don't have to deal with
as much drama or difficulty and if Grandpa is running his mouth
while you're busy greering other guests, he'll still be quickly
tossed out.
[/quote]
Actually, Double Bass wants to take care of it himself. He has
also let his godmother (a former nurse) and our priest know we
will have family issues, so they, along with Cabbage, will make
sure Gramps either behaves or leaves.
#Post#: 33031--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Rose Red Date: June 18, 2019, 8:45 am
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Sorry, but your gran is an enabler and manipulative with her
crying and cares more about appearances than people being
abused. That's not love, understanding, or support.
Invite her if you wish, but there's no way I would invite
grandpa. If gran won't go without her husband, that's her
choice. Actions (or non-actions) have consequences and this is
one consequence for the spouse of an abuser.
I realize it's family and easier said than done. This is just my
advise that you can take or leave. But I hope your wedding turns
out to be a good one no matter what you decide.
#Post#: 33082--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: collakat Date: June 19, 2019, 3:29 am
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In the first place, Congratulations! This is your blessed day
and it seems you have wonderful support in your MOH and future
Husband and they have a plan of action for handling your Gramps
(I'm sorry that you have to deal with someone like him).
I would not invite the family you are not close to, and your MOH
said she will field the fallout:) So don't feel guilty about it.
Thirdly the Quaich seems like a lovely ceremony, I really like
the idea of it and Toast wordings on the link you shared . You
could keep whatever you are drinking in a small decanter that
goes with your table decorations and theme if you are worried
that the bottle of wine (or whatever you choose) would highlight
the fact you are not serving it to everyone? I don't think it
is rude btw.
#Post#: 33091--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Hanna Date: June 19, 2019, 9:12 am
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[quote author=violinp link=topic=1190.msg33013#msg33013
date=1560815770]
[quote author=Bada link=topic=1190.msg32912#msg32912
date=1560560034]
*IF* your grandpa does make it, don't make Double Bass be the
one who has to kick him out. Appoint a groomsman or uncle or
someone to be the bouncer. That way you don't have to deal with
as much drama or difficulty and if Grandpa is running his mouth
while you're busy greering other guests, he'll still be quickly
tossed out.
[/quote]
Actually, Double Bass wants to take care of it himself. He has
also let his godmother (a former nurse) and our priest know we
will have family issues, so they, along with Cabbage, will make
sure Gramps either behaves or leaves.
[/quote]
Honestly, this is no way to begin your marriage and a terrible
position to put him in on his wedding day, even if he says he
wants to handle it. It’s also putting your guests in a situation
that is bound to be very awkward, and your family will feel much
more pain if he is kicked out than if he is not invited.
I got married a few days; it’s an incredibly emotional time, and
goes by very quickly. Any second of the day spent on sadness or
drama is going to be very precious time wasted when you could
have been just looking in his eyes or feeling all the amazing
love of the people around you.
If you are not satisfied before hand that he will behave
politely, then can tell them and anyone in the family that asks,
that out of respect for your grandfather’s strong distaste for
Catholicism you opted to let him off the hook and not invite
them. It would be rude to invite one and not the other, so
that’s also out of respect. Then tell any guests that ask “They
were unable to make it today.”
If you are strong enough to buck your grandfather’s wishes and
marry in a way that he does not condone, you are strong enough
to do this. And this is putting your marriage and new husband
above everything else in the world.
#Post#: 33208--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: JeanFromBNA Date: June 21, 2019, 1:53 pm
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[quote author=violinp link=topic=1190.msg32899#msg32899
date=1560545021]
This, plus their ill health, is mainly the reason I'm still
inviting them both. Right now, my script looks like this:
"Hey, Gran; I wanna talk about the wedding. I know I haven’t
broached the subject before, but I think I really need to. You
know Double Bass and I are Catholic, and that our wedding will
be a Nuptial Mass. I also know my conversion, and Cabbage’s,
really hurt you both, and Gramps in particular. You both are
completely welcome at our wedding, because I love you very much.
However, I also want you to know we don’t want to hear any
disparagement of our faith on our wedding day. On our day,
Double Bass and I want to focus on being married and being with
our family and friends, not differences of belief. I know Gramps
can get passionate about his beliefs, but we want to make this
clear: Disparaging our faith is disparaging us, and if he can’t
keep from doing that, then he’ll have to leave. I hate that I
even have to say this, but considering the ways Gramps reacted
to our separate conversions, I wanted to make sure our ground
rules were clear.”
I’m sure even this won’t go over well – Gran will insist Gramps
would *never* behave that way, and why would I even suggest such
a thing would happen, and Gramps will get into a snit. However,
it’s about as classy as I can get, because what I would like to
say is this:
“Listen: I know you’re going to tell me this won’t happen, but
I’ve lived around you both long enough to assume it will. Gramps
is not allowed to make any kind of disparaging or mean comment
about anything on our wedding day. If he starts in on anyone or
badmouths anything, Double Bass *will* make sure he leaves.
There will be no warning – he will have to leave. If you want to
leave with him, that’s your prerogative, but I’m sure Uncle Bill
or Uncle Ted will make sure you can get back to the hotel if you
want to stay.”
Double Bass has really helped me find my spine in a lot of ways,
but I do want to, as an adult, try to have a relationship with
my grandparents apart from my mom. If they fail this test,
they’re out of our lives, to be honest. I don’t have time for
toxic relatives to give me an ulcer from hundreds of miles away
while I’m trying to start a family.
[/quote]
I would save your breath. You've described a person with a
profound personality disorder. It's not in their nature to take
advice from anyone, and especially not a junior relative. You
said above that you want to have an adult relationship with your
grandparents. Adults don't warn or lecture other adults about
their behavior. They either accept them as they are and take
the associated risks, or disengage. If it's not possible for you
to disengage at this point, I suggest that you invite them, and
if they come, deal with their behavior at the wedding as it
occurs - with no warnings - just have someone hustle him out the
door. Personality disordered people are incapable of honest
self-assessment, and they live in a self-determined reality, so
he might act up, confident that everyone agrees with him, when
they actually don't.
You've been part of that family cult for so long, you may not
realize that you've come away with fleas (check the outofthefog
website for what I mean by fleas). If he behaves badly, he will
look bad, not you. Personality Disordered people are very
concerned about appearances, especially first impressions, so
there's a chance that he'll be too worried about that, and too
ill to cause public drama. But whatever you decide to do, do it
with your eyes open, and don't try to control him. You can't.
No need to invite the other couple if you haven't seen them or
heard from them in 16 years.
#Post#: 33447--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: bopper Date: June 25, 2019, 2:48 pm
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[quote author=violinp link=topic=1190.msg32851#msg32851
date=1560466459]
Ok. I thought wedding planning wouldn't be this...bad. Buuut, I
also have a horrible family, so I probably should've expected
it.
1. My grandpa. He's always been an abusive, alcoholic jerk, but
the past 2 years or so have been particularly bad. Mom (his
daughter) died 5 years ago, and I converted to Catholicism from
being Lutheran 2 years ago. Grandpa is a Lutheran pastor, and
was furious I converted, saying I now serve Satan. What remained
of our relationship after his abuse, in my eyes, was now
shattered. He and I barely speak, but I keep up with Grandma to
make sure she's ok. Then Cabbage (my sister) converted to
Catholicism this year. Grandpa reacted even more badly, and
refused to even eat dinner with her when she visited them after.
Double Bass really doesn't want me to invite them, because he
wants us (and me especially, because I've been so abused in my
family and by others) to have the wedding we/I deserve, but has
said he will support whatever I choose. I really want Grandma
there, but having the man who terrorized my mom and her
brothers, belittled my dad and aunts, and has essentially given
Cabbage and me the CD while wanting to pretend we all get
along...is worrying me. I'm going to have a talk with them
before the wedding that boils down to "If Gramps makes any mean
comments, you will need to leave," but I don't know how to word
it in a polite manner that doesn't make me a doormat. Advice?
2. There are relatives I have been asked by Gran to invite.
Let's call them Great - Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida. Ida is
my grandma's sister, but I haven't spoken to Vic or Ida since my
older uncle's wedding 16 years ago. They live on the other side
of the country, and even if they didn't...Vic nearly ruined
Uncle Bill's wedding when he freaked out that a reading wasn't
from the Bible (Gran's other sister had to hit him to make him
quit). Vic and Ida are even more conservative Lutherans than my
grandparents, and would be, at best, deeply uncomfortable at a
Catholic Mass. All of that combined makes it obvious to me not
to invite Great - Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida. The rub: I am
inviting the other siblings (Gran, her other sister, and their
brother) and their spouses, plus my Gramps's brother, SIL, and
sister. All of them I am close to, unlike Vic and Ida. Is this
bad etiquette? If Gran asks, what do I say?
3. We are having an almost dry reception. I say "almost" because
Double Bass and I will have a ceremonial bottle of wine for the
reception for a cultural tradition important to us
(
HTML https://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/marriage/content/quaich-ceremony<br
/>). Is this rude to our guests? We will have 2 punches, coffee,
and water with a BBQ lunch and a cake.
Thanks in advance for your answers!
[/quote]
1) You are approaching it as "if you are bad you have to
leave"....Another way is "If you are going to be bad, you cannot
come." "Gran, I am having a dilemma. As a wedding is a happy
occasion celebrating the joining of two people, I want people
that are supportive to attend. Grandpa has shown he is not
supportive of me. I would love you to come, of course, but can
understand if you won't attend without Grandpa."
"he won't do anything"
"Have you ever heard that quote, "When people show you who they
are, believe them? Well Grandpa showed me who he is and I won't
have that kind of hate at my wedding."
2. Don't invite Uncle Vic and Great - Aunt Ida.
"And for the same reason I won't be able to invite Vic and Ida.
3. Is there a way to do the ceremony without taking a big bottle
of wine and pouring it in front of anyone? Could you quietly
fill the quaich out of sight and then do the ceremony?
#Post#: 33452--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Need Help...
By: Gellchom Date: June 25, 2019, 3:51 pm
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Yeah, I think what you need to do is talk to Grandma and/or
others in the family. There are just too many moving parts for
us to be able to tell you what will work best in your situation.
Like, the aunt and uncle -- seems obvious to just not invite
them, but if all their other siblings are invited, that could
create very awkward situations for innocent parties, too. I'm
not saying you should invite them! Just that I think you need
to sit down with a trusted family member who knows the people,
the history, the relationships, and the dynamics in YOUR family,
not what would work best in ours. Not to mention that they
would be better able to predict whether these people will even
come if you do invite them! And they will probably think of
things that we and even you didn't.
You are absolutely justified in not inviting them, and that may
well be your best option. But as I can tell you know, being
justified is just the beginning of the analysis.
You want to make sure that whatever decision you make doesn't
become the focus of your wedding, the thing everyone will
remember (Relative X excluded! Relative X invited and then
kicked out!). That can be very hard (unless you get really
lucky and you invite them and they don't come). Whatever you
decide, you will have to take steps to minimize that.
Conferring with other family members might help with that. You
can do it! Again, it's not just a question of what decision you
make, but how you implement and communicate it.
As to the wine ceremony -- I want to change my earlier answer.
If you don't pour it in front of everyone (or if it's an
integral part of the ceremony, maybe you could pour it from a
jug, not the bottle; then it's not even obvious what it is), I
think it's fine. Or if you can use grape juice or something,
will that work? I know that's what we do in Jewish wine
ceremonies when there are kids or alcoholics involved. I think
I have heard that churches that do communion can use grape
juice, too, but I'm not sure -- I'm sure someone here knows.
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