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#Post#: 34241--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Chez Miriam Date: July 10, 2019, 8:31 am
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[quote author=LadyJaneinMD link=topic=1185.msg34239#msg34239
date=1562765113]
[quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=1185.msg34231#msg34231
date=1562761362]
[quote author=Rho link=topic=1185.msg34216#msg34216
date=1562732224]
". As I understand it, serving a vegan meal on dishes had had
been previously used for anything non-Kosher would not be
appropriate if your Jewish guest was both kosher"
My strict Kosher son and Vegan daughter were both staying with
me last week. Talk about nightmare meal planing for me! Any
ingredient that was not fresh produce had to be certified
kosher. }}shudder{{ but we all survived for them to visit
another time ;D ;D :D
[/quote]
That brings up another question that probably belongs in the
stupid question thread: what is done to salt [basically a rock]
to make that kosher?
[/quote]
Kosher salt's original purpose was really to kosher meat,
meaning to remove the blood from meat, so it's really koshering
salt. Certain salt companies labeled the boxes of this coarse
salt kosher salt rather than koshering salt, and the name stuck.
[/quote]
Ah, thank you for that lightbulb that's just gone on in my head;
that makes total sense!
#Post#: 34254--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: JeanFromBNA Date: July 10, 2019, 1:41 pm
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[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1185.msg34182#msg34182
date=1562705637]
First, I’m horrified that host sister won’t give her children
some choices, some of the time.
I don’t mean, serve dinner and one of the kids says I won’t eat
any of this, go make me a jam sandwich (thank you, Francis). I
mean why on earth can’t you serve dinner and tell the kids, you
have to eat something green, it can be the salad or the peas,
but you must chose one at least one spoonful of one green.
To suggest that, in this case, salad is being served and there
will be no other option because the kids eat what I give them,
is so troubling to me.
I very much hope the option to eat what is presented or do with
out is there.
If the dinner is chicken, salad and corn, and the kid doesn’t
want the corn, but will eat the chicken and salad. Fine. Sure,
ask the child to try corn a time or two but after that if
they’re saying they still don’t like it don’t force them to eat
it.
It really sounds to me like this woman may be forcing her
children to eat certain things and that’s just not ok. I feel
strongly about this because I was forced to eat food I turned
out to be allergic to which meant I spent a lot of time being
sick when I didn’t need to be or trying to find ways to hide the
food which resulted in punishment I wasn’t sure was worse or
better than getting sick.
Prohibiting things with children, I understand. Forcing children
or anyone to eat or do anything is a whole different game.
Think about it. If you serve dinner and your child refuses, you
can punish them, send them to their room, don’t give them
anything else to eat, fine. But forcing them to eat what’s
there, is scary.
We all want them to clean up after themselves, but there’s a
huge difference between forcing them to, for example grabbing
their arm, physically prying their fingers open and pushing a
toy into their hand and wrapping your bigger hand around it and
dragging them to the toy box and making them toss it in.
No one would do that, you’d just take their toys away and let
them know, if they can’t clean up they can’t play.
But this woman won’t even consider making a substitution, before
the meal has been served to her children. Even if two choices
of greens are abhorrent to her, she can’t just say “oh, you guys
want peas? Ok, we’ll do that”.
I mean really, it’s not mars bars, it’s peas. Not only is she
saying, her children will eat what’s served to them. She’s
saying her children will eat what’s served to them and I’m
serving salad and the addition of another healthy, green food is
prohibited!
I know posters will think I’m being extreme but it’s very weird
to me.
Also, I don’t like fish now, I’ve never like fish and not only
was I forced to eat fish (fish was not the thing that I was
allergic to) as a child, but I tried to force myself to eat
salmon as an adult because it’s supposed to be good for you, but
I hate it. I also tried sushi exactly three times because the
word says I’m a spoiled brat if I don’t like sushi. But I don’t
like sushi, salmon, fish, shellfish or any animal including
alligator, that lives in the water.
I am no more spoiled because I don’t like what I’m allergic to,
or because I don’t like fish, than that I don’t like The Big
Bang Theory, or the motion sickness I get from boats or the
nauseated feeling I get from certain smells.
Also, Muslims and Jews should obviously not be expected to serve
pork, but what is with this theory that vegetarians should be
expected to serve meat because there’s no religious ideology
behind it? If one believes meat is murder, that is just as
legitimate as any religious prohibition.
I’m a meat and pork eater, I would just serve a vegetarian meal
if I had vegetarian people over, even if there were meat eaters.
Depending on the individual Jewish or Muslim person I may serve
pork.
I’m against the method of Halaal slaughter, and (is kosher
slaughter the same?) I couldn’t provide strict kosher meals
because there are often restrictions even on who touches the
plate.
So I would just serve vegan meals should I find myself in this
situation because I think it covers all restrictions. Please,
let me know if I’m wrong.
[/quote]
I heard the call that is the subject of this post, and it didn't
sound like the caller was planning to force her children to eat
anything. She just didn't want to cook any extra.
#Post#: 34256--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Contrarian Date: July 10, 2019, 2:03 pm
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Sorry, I should have stated that I know full well that a vegan
meal wouldn’t suit a strictly kosher person. But I’ve never
known a strictly kosher person to eat otherwhere (?) than
strictly kosher restaurants and strictly kosher households.
But my atheist Jewish friends often can’t shake the pork
restriction.
But also, I’ve been told by strictly Kosher Jews that there are
restrictions about who is touching the plate, and I’ve been told
by other strictly kosher Jews that this restriction doesn’t
exist. So when it comes down to it, you just have to ask. But
most I know will politely turn down an invitation.
And to but it into perspective, I only know 3 kosher Jewish
people and only one of them well enough that I’d break bread
with and that only happens at kosher restaurants.
So I’m certainly no authority there.
I’m so glad to hear that the mom wasn’t going to force feed her
children, but it didn’t sound like she wouldn’t add the peas
because she didn’t want to cook more, it sounded like she didn’t
want to have the peas because her children are taught to eat
what they are served...I’m not sure how this applies.
Did she think that her nieces/nephews should be made to eat the
salad? Does she never serve peas? I don’t really understand. I
kind of thought this was the main question of the post. That one
mother said she wouldn’t serve peas because of the rule of the
household.
#Post#: 34259--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Copper Horsewoman Date: July 10, 2019, 2:32 pm
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Question to those who are more conversant than I with kosher
dietary rules: Isn't there some relaxation permitted if one is
travelling? The idea being that you do the best you can to eat
in accordance with the laws, but between starving and adhering
to all the rules, you do the best you can with what is
available. That is, it's not right to use riding a mile in a car
as an excuse for eating shrimp, but if you are a guest in a
non-kosher home that is a day's travel away, you might know the
china plate may have held a cheeseburger before it was washed,
but you can eat a salad off of it because there are no at hand
kosher options.
#Post#: 34287--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: lakey Date: July 10, 2019, 11:26 pm
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[quote]I’m so glad to hear that the mom wasn’t going to force
feed her children, but it didn’t sound like she wouldn’t add the
peas because she didn’t want to cook more, it sounded like she
didn’t want to have the peas because her children are taught to
eat what they are served...I’m not sure how this applies.
Did she think that her nieces/nephews should be made to eat the
salad? Does she never serve peas? I don’t really understand. I
kind of thought this was the main question of the post. That one
mother said she wouldn’t serve peas because of the rule of the
household.[/quote]
I went back and reread the original post and it sounded like
host sister wasn't opposed to peas, she was opposed to giving
her children a choice between two side dishes. So, yeah, she
appears to be pretty inflexible. Rules are all well and good,
but the kids have to learn that not all families do things the
same way.
On the other hand, having a guest wanting to change a menu could
be annoying. That being said, two sisters having a big family
blow up over whether or not peas are served in addition to salad
is sad. Hope they made up.
#Post#: 34297--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Gellchom Date: July 11, 2019, 7:24 am
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[quote author=Copper Horsewoman
link=topic=1185.msg34259#msg34259 date=1562787120]
Question to those who are more conversant than I with kosher
dietary rules: Isn't there some relaxation permitted if one is
travelling? The idea being that you do the best you can to eat
in accordance with the laws, but between starving and adhering
to all the rules, you do the best you can with what is
available. That is, it's not right to use riding a mile in a car
as an excuse for eating shrimp, but if you are a guest in a
non-kosher home that is a day's travel away, you might know the
china plate may have held a cheeseburger before it was washed,
but you can eat a salad off of it because there are no at hand
kosher options.
[/quote]Many people relax their standards while traveling out of
necessity, and some when visiting out of courtesy, and some
people simply are stricter at home than when dining out or on a
trip.
But the rules of kashrut don’t change. They are what they are.
The only real exceptions are for, like, starvation or critical
health risk.
Whether relaxation is “permitted” doesn’t quite make sense —
there’s no enforcement mechanism or penalty, earthly or
otherwise. In some ultra-religious communities centered around
an authoritative rebbe, I suppose. But for the rest of us, it’s
your own choice how strict you’ll be, not that there are
different rules. There’s a continuum of observance among Jews,
but not a sliding scale of rules. And I doubt there are two
Jews that do it EXACTLY the same way! Because you sometimes
have to make judgment calls even when trying to be as strict as
possible.
The thing about touching the plate is not true. I think people
get confused by two things, (1) the special rules for wine and
(2) catering situations like airplanes or specially ordered
meals where the diner has to remove the outer packaging
themselves. But that just has to do with assuring that the food
has not left supervision since it left the supervision of the
mashgiach (kashrut supervisor). I.e., the diner knows that no
one put it on the same plate with a ham sandwich or something.
Does that help?
#Post#: 34301--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Aleko Date: July 11, 2019, 7:44 am
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[quote]Question to those who are more conversant than I with
kosher dietary rules: Isn't there some relaxation permitted if
one is travelling? The idea being that you do the best you can
to eat in accordance with the laws, but between starving and
adhering to all the rules, you do the best you can with what is
available. That is, it's not right to use riding a mile in a car
as an excuse for eating shrimp, but if you are a guest in a
non-kosher home that is a day's travel away, you might know the
china plate may have held a cheeseburger before it was washed,
but you can eat a salad off of it because there are no at hand
kosher options. [/quote]
No, not really. It has always (or at any rate for many
centuries) been a Jewish principle that the saving of human life
takes precedence over pretty much any other Jewish law. Thus, a
doctor may treat a gravely injured patient on the Sabbath; a
gravely sick person who can only be cured by a medicine that
contains pig products may take it; and you may break the rules
of kashrut sooner than die of starvation. But it takes a genuine
life-or-death situation for this rule to kick in. If you know
you're going to be staying somewhere that is a day's travel away
where you won't be able to get kosher food, take some with you.
If you find yourself unexpectedly stranded overnight, well, not
eating for a day won't kill you.
#Post#: 34304--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Copper Horsewoman Date: July 11, 2019, 8:13 am
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Thank you to the people answering my question.
#Post#: 34364--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: GardenGal Date: July 11, 2019, 8:22 pm
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[quote author=Aleko link=topic=1185.msg34301#msg34301
date=1562849062]
[quote]Question to those who are more conversant than I with
kosher dietary rules: Isn't there some relaxation permitted if
one is travelling? The idea being that you do the best you can
to eat in accordance with the laws, but between starving and
adhering to all the rules, you do the best you can with what is
available. That is, it's not right to use riding a mile in a car
as an excuse for eating shrimp, but if you are a guest in a
non-kosher home that is a day's travel away, you might know the
china plate may have held a cheeseburger before it was washed,
but you can eat a salad off of it because there are no at hand
kosher options. [/quote]
No, not really. It has always (or at any rate for many
centuries) been a Jewish principle that the saving of human life
takes precedence over pretty much any other Jewish law. Thus, a
doctor may treat a gravely injured patient on the Sabbath; a
gravely sick person who can only be cured by a medicine that
contains pig products may take it; and you may break the rules
of kashrut sooner than die of starvation. But it takes a genuine
life-or-death situation for this rule to kick in. If you know
you're going to be staying somewhere that is a day's travel away
where you won't be able to get kosher food, take some with you.
If you find yourself unexpectedly stranded overnight, well, not
eating for a day won't kill you.
[/quote]
When my kosher mom needed diabetic medicine decades ago, and
found out it could only (at that time) be made from something
from pigs, her rabbi told her that was okay. And, it breaks my
heart to say this, but when there were Jews in concentration
camps the rabbis told them it was okay to eat anything they were
given, to stay alive as long as possible. As PP have noted, the
rules don't change, but there is a very wide range of how
strictly the rules are observed. Like I said above, my mother
would eat kosher food off my non-kosher plates, but my cousin
won't.
#Post#: 34374--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Raintree Date: July 11, 2019, 11:02 pm
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I think not allowing an appetizer is bizarre. Guest sister was
offering something nice. Appetizers may not be a part of Host
Sister's everyday meal planning, but when you have guests, isn't
there supposed to be some enjoyment and togetherness surrounding
food, and extending the meal to include appies, maybe some
drinks, dessert, etc.? It's not like they are providing Mars
Bars at 3 PM or constant munching of chips all afternoon.
But asking for peas because your kids can't be taught to be
polite and accept what's put in front of them while a guest in
someone's home is a bit much, IMO.
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