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#Post#: 33536--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: TootsNYC Date: June 26, 2019, 6:57 pm
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[quote author=Andi_3k link=topic=1185.msg33362#msg33362
date=1561409690]
They’re both wrong. Frankly if someone is bringing both and
appetizer AND a side they are saying something is lacking in my
hosting. And sister or not I’d be insulted. The host should be
providing adequate food for her guests and a main and a salad
just don’t cut it from my perspective. At my house there are
ALWAYS at least two sides and a salad along with the main and
possibly bread/rolls no one would notice if the kids didn’t eat
salad. For the guest’s part she should have asked first- all of
my family would have and there would have been no issues
[/quote]
So it sounds like this sister's hosting WAS lacking! And maybe
the visiting sister knew it would be. And believed that the
hosting sister deserved the insult.
#Post#: 33546--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Aleko Date: June 27, 2019, 3:51 am
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[quote]Interesting - I need clarification here where’s do
the host’s philosophies or beliefs or just plain plans
figure in ? If vegetarian/ Veganism is not religiously base is
it ok to bring steak- is it ok for the vegetarian/ vegan to
demand everyone eat their way Can the vegetarian bring fish
and demand it be cooked for them despite the hosts objections?
What about hosts who spend time, effort and money to offer a
dinner for their guests plan and invite folks do the guests then
get to show up and say “ we’d prefer this” and
hand the host stuff to cook/bake? Where do the hosts wants/needs
fit in .[/quote]
It is ALWAYS rude to turn up at someone's house with food for
yourself and "demand" that they cook it for you. (It is doubly
rude if that foodstuff is something that they themselves have an
objection to, whether on moral, religious or even taste grounds.
No host should be asked to pollute their kitchen with something
they find repellent, for any reason.) Not even if the main dish
they have prepared is something you really can't eat, let alone
because it is something you don't specially like! If you can't
eat or just don't like the main course, you eat what you can
eat, and thank them nicely.
Turning up with something for yourself and demanding to be
allowed into the kitchen to cook it is hardly any less rude. The
inconvenience to the host is not much less, and the clearly
implied criticism - 'your meal is inadequate for me' - is the
same. Even asking ahead of time to bring and cook a dish for
everyone is something that you should do only with close friends
and family, very cautiously; as we see from the subject of this
thread!
If you know that there really is not going to be anything on
their table that you can eat - say, you have such complex and
life-threatening allergies that you can only trust what you have
prepared yourself, or are so traditional Jewish that you can't
eat anything made in a non-kosher kitchen - it is legit to bring
something for yourself so long as it's ready-prepared; even in
this case, to demand that your hosts do extra cooking work just
for you is horribly rude. (Though I would say you'd get a pass
for asking if your food container can be put in the microwave;
that's hardly work.)
Vegetarians and vegans are of course entitled to politely
decline any dish that their principles don't allow them to eat,
but not to insist that such dishes aren't served. If they can't
stand to be at a table where other people are eating animal
protein, they shouldn't accept an invitation to a meal where
they have a reasonable expectation that this will happen.
Anyone who invites guests for a meal has a general obligation to
serve them a meal they can all eat and enjoy, as far as
possible. If there are people at table who won't feel they have
had a proper meal without a main dish of animal protein, then
serve one; just make sure there is enough for the ones who can't
or won't eat it to make a square meal out of. If you know that a
specific animal protein (pork to Jews and Muslims, beef to
Hindus, human flesh to non-cannibals, fish to my friend Nick who
is genuinely nauseated by the smell of it) are objectionable to
one or more guests, don't choose that if you could just as well
cook something else. This last obligation dwindles in proportion
to the frequency of the guest's visits. If you invite your
non-cannibal friend only occasionally, don't serve roast leg of
insurance salesman on those occasions; but if he marries your
daughter and joins you at family meals on a regular basis, he'll
have to be prepared to watch you eat what you normally eat, just
as Copper Horsewoman's nephew-i-l does.
#Post#: 34182--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Contrarian Date: July 9, 2019, 3:53 pm
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First, I’m horrified that host sister won’t give her children
some choices, some of the time.
I don’t mean, serve dinner and one of the kids says I won’t eat
any of this, go make me a jam sandwich (thank you, Francis). I
mean why on earth can’t you serve dinner and tell the kids, you
have to eat something green, it can be the salad or the peas,
but you must chose one at least one spoonful of one green.
To suggest that, in this case, salad is being served and there
will be no other option because the kids eat what I give them,
is so troubling to me.
I very much hope the option to eat what is presented or do with
out is there.
If the dinner is chicken, salad and corn, and the kid doesn’t
want the corn, but will eat the chicken and salad. Fine. Sure,
ask the child to try corn a time or two but after that if
they’re saying they still don’t like it don’t force them to eat
it.
It really sounds to me like this woman may be forcing her
children to eat certain things and that’s just not ok. I feel
strongly about this because I was forced to eat food I turned
out to be allergic to which meant I spent a lot of time being
sick when I didn’t need to be or trying to find ways to hide the
food which resulted in punishment I wasn’t sure was worse or
better than getting sick.
Prohibiting things with children, I understand. Forcing children
or anyone to eat or do anything is a whole different game.
Think about it. If you serve dinner and your child refuses, you
can punish them, send them to their room, don’t give them
anything else to eat, fine. But forcing them to eat what’s
there, is scary.
We all want them to clean up after themselves, but there’s a
huge difference between forcing them to, for example grabbing
their arm, physically prying their fingers open and pushing a
toy into their hand and wrapping your bigger hand around it and
dragging them to the toy box and making them toss it in.
No one would do that, you’d just take their toys away and let
them know, if they can’t clean up they can’t play.
But this woman won’t even consider making a substitution, before
the meal has been served to her children. Even if two choices
of greens are abhorrent to her, she can’t just say “oh, you guys
want peas? Ok, we’ll do that”.
I mean really, it’s not mars bars, it’s peas. Not only is she
saying, her children will eat what’s served to them. She’s
saying her children will eat what’s served to them and I’m
serving salad and the addition of another healthy, green food is
prohibited!
I know posters will think I’m being extreme but it’s very weird
to me.
Also, I don’t like fish now, I’ve never like fish and not only
was I forced to eat fish (fish was not the thing that I was
allergic to) as a child, but I tried to force myself to eat
salmon as an adult because it’s supposed to be good for you, but
I hate it. I also tried sushi exactly three times because the
word says I’m a spoiled brat if I don’t like sushi. But I don’t
like sushi, salmon, fish, shellfish or any animal including
alligator, that lives in the water.
I am no more spoiled because I don’t like what I’m allergic to,
or because I don’t like fish, than that I don’t like The Big
Bang Theory, or the motion sickness I get from boats or the
nauseated feeling I get from certain smells.
Also, Muslims and Jews should obviously not be expected to serve
pork, but what is with this theory that vegetarians should be
expected to serve meat because there’s no religious ideology
behind it? If one believes meat is murder, that is just as
legitimate as any religious prohibition.
I’m a meat and pork eater, I would just serve a vegetarian meal
if I had vegetarian people over, even if there were meat eaters.
Depending on the individual Jewish or Muslim person I may serve
pork.
I’m against the method of Halaal slaughter, and (is kosher
slaughter the same?) I couldn’t provide strict kosher meals
because there are often restrictions even on who touches the
plate.
So I would just serve vegan meals should I find myself in this
situation because I think it covers all restrictions. Please,
let me know if I’m wrong.
#Post#: 34189--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Chez Miriam Date: July 9, 2019, 4:40 pm
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[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1185.msg34182#msg34182
date=1562705637]
So I would just serve vegan meals should I find myself in this
situation because I think it covers all restrictions. Please,
let me know if I’m wrong.
[/quote]
I'm interested to know the answer to this.
I'm pretty sure there will be a wide variation of answers, but
I'd love to know if someone who kept firmly kosher/halal could
eat a vegan meal if I prepared one.
I once had a boyfriend who reacted with horror to the suggestion
of prawns: "NOOO! I'm Jewish!" I hadn't realised he was
Jewish; had I known, I would have done some major ribbing
earlier that week when he ate the bacon sandwich! ;)
#Post#: 34194--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: GardenGal Date: July 9, 2019, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=1185.msg34189#msg34189
date=1562708455]
[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=1185.msg34182#msg34182
date=1562705637]
So I would just serve vegan meals should I find myself in this
situation because I think it covers all restrictions. Please,
let me know if I’m wrong.
[/quote]
I'm interested to know the answer to this.
I'm pretty sure there will be a wide variation of answers, but
I'd love to know if someone who kept firmly kosher/halal could
eat a vegan meal if I prepared one.
I once had a boyfriend who reacted with horror to the suggestion
of prawns: "NOOO! I'm Jewish!" I hadn't realised he was
Jewish; had I known, I would have done some major ribbing
earlier that week when he ate the bacon sandwich! ;)
[/quote]
Although I've been an atheist for 60 years, I grew up in a
Kosher household, so I think I can answer this from the Jewish
perspective. Kosher laws prohibit the eating of meat (of which
only certain kinds are kosher in the first place) and milk in
the same meal, but it is also a lot more than that. As I
understand it, serving a vegan meal on dishes had had been
previously used for anything non-Kosher would not be appropriate
if your Jewish guest was both kosher and very
traditional/religious. In my mother's house, there was one set
of dishes, utensils, pots & pans for preparing dairy dishes, and
an entirely separate set for preparing food with meat. (Some
very observant Jews have two separate kitchens, or at least two
separate refrigerators and stoves).
So, if you're a vegan full-time and have never had any kind of
meat (or dairy) in your home, then it would be fine to serve a
person who observes the kosher dietary laws a vegan meal, since
no meat or dairy ever came into contact with your kitchen.
Likewise, if you're a vegetarian who never had any kind of meat
(including fish) in your kitchen, then serving a vegetarian meal
(which could include eggs, dairy and/or honey) to a person who
observes the kosher laws would be fine. However, if you prepare
any kind of meat or shellfish your guest might not consider a
vegetarian or vegan meal to be suitable for them because the
same dishes/utensils/pots could have been used to cook meat.
There is, however, a lot of latitude within the Jewish community
when it comes to observing the rules of kosher eating. I have
one cousin who would only accept water from our home (preferably
in a paper cup), while other relatives will keep their homes
kosher but eat non-kosher meals at restaurants. My mother kept
a kosher kitchen, but she would eat vegetarian food at a Chinese
restaurant, even though she knew meat had been prepared using
the same utensils. Other aunts would eat fish at a restaurant
that also served shellfish (which is not kosher). In general,
the more religious you are the more likely you are to keep to a
very kosher eating plan. On the other hand, the Reformed Jews
often eat food that is considered not kosher by Orthodox Jews-
there is a mystery book titled "Friday the Rabbi ate Shrimp"
about a Reformed rabbi who solved crimes. My mother knew I
didn't have a kosher kitchen, but when she visited I bought
strictly kosher food and she was happy to eat it.
Hope this helps - this is the tip of the iceberg when it comes
to Kosher rules.
#Post#: 34197--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Tea Drinker Date: July 9, 2019, 5:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
GardenGal answered the questions about kosher better than I
would have, and I'm glad the board software told me to review my
draft post because there was a new reply.
All I know about halal is that the rules are simpler than the
kosher rules, and that Muslims (or at least some Muslims)
consider kosher meat an acceptable substitute if they can't get
halal meat.
#Post#: 34198--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Chez Miriam Date: July 9, 2019, 5:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, GardenGal, that clears up a lot.
As far as I'm aware, no shellfish has ever touched our
utensils/pots/plates, etc [I'm firmly of the opinion shellfish
is unclean (I know what they eat!), but as I'm intolerant, it
never really arises], but when I'm away from home for a couple
of months, who knows what happens! ;) ;D
I'm pretty sure that pork gets cooked on the barbecue [I'm
intolerant of that too, so it doesn't happen when I'm within
smelling distance].
Never knowing/remembering the levels of observance, I always
used to meet my Jewish friend(s) in a kosher restaurant - seemed
easiest for all concerned. Now, we've all moved away/lost
touch, so it's moot.
Tea Drinker: thanks for the halal clarification - that helps a
lot.
#Post#: 34216--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Rho Date: July 9, 2019, 11:17 pm
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". As I understand it, serving a vegan meal on dishes had had
been previously used for anything non-Kosher would not be
appropriate if your Jewish guest was both kosher"
My strict Kosher son and Vegan daughter were both staying with
me last week. Talk about nightmare meal planing for me! Any
ingredient that was not fresh produce had to be certified
kosher. }}shudder{{ but we all survived for them to visit
another time ;D ;D :D
#Post#: 34231--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: Chez Miriam Date: July 10, 2019, 7:22 am
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[quote author=Rho link=topic=1185.msg34216#msg34216
date=1562732224]
". As I understand it, serving a vegan meal on dishes had had
been previously used for anything non-Kosher would not be
appropriate if your Jewish guest was both kosher"
My strict Kosher son and Vegan daughter were both staying with
me last week. Talk about nightmare meal planing for me! Any
ingredient that was not fresh produce had to be certified
kosher. }}shudder{{ but we all survived for them to visit
another time ;D ;D :D
[/quote]
That brings up another question that probably belongs in the
stupid question thread: what is done to salt [basically a rock]
to make that kosher?
#Post#: 34239--------------------------------------------------
Re: House rules vs honoring a guests request
By: NewHomeowner Date: July 10, 2019, 8:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=1185.msg34231#msg34231
date=1562761362]
[quote author=Rho link=topic=1185.msg34216#msg34216
date=1562732224]
". As I understand it, serving a vegan meal on dishes had had
been previously used for anything non-Kosher would not be
appropriate if your Jewish guest was both kosher"
My strict Kosher son and Vegan daughter were both staying with
me last week. Talk about nightmare meal planing for me! Any
ingredient that was not fresh produce had to be certified
kosher. }}shudder{{ but we all survived for them to visit
another time ;D ;D :D
[/quote]
That brings up another question that probably belongs in the
stupid question thread: what is done to salt [basically a rock]
to make that kosher?
[/quote]
Kosher salt's original purpose was really to kosher meat,
meaning to remove the blood from meat, so it's really koshering
salt. Certain salt companies labeled the boxes of this coarse
salt kosher salt rather than koshering salt, and the name stuck.
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