DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Bad Manners and Brimstone
HTML https://badmanners.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Life in General
*****************************************************
#Post#: 31663--------------------------------------------------
Beliefs
DIR By: Contrarian
Date: May 23, 2019, 3:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There was a debate I quietly (if you can believe it) listened to
recently. It was between a friend of mine brought up in a
religion that actively suppressed women and others to shocking
degrees in current times, who has left and is now an activist
for human rights especially those suppressed by said religion,
and an “orthodox” religious person whose religion did indeed
suppress women and others historically but does not actively do
so now.
The thing is, the orthodox has been taught and believes that
homosexuality is a sin. However, this person (the orthodox) has
friends who are gay, breaks bread with those who are gay and
supports all human rights for those who are gay. But stops short
at celebrating gay marriage or anniversaries because they
consider it a sin.
I confess I don’t understand the concept of sin, I wasn’t
brought up with it.
And I dearly love my friend the activist who freed herself from
a religion which gave power to her family to suppress her.
But she accused this orthodox man of all kinds of intolerance,
and I’m not sure she and I agree on the concept of tolerance.
While I feel it’s my right to voice my opinions, I also feel
it’s right for others to do the same.
The thing is, although the orthodox (I am an anti-theist, I
believe religion does more harm than good) believes certain
things are a sin, he does not believe that such sinners should
be deprived of human rights, he will accept their hospitality
and offer his own to them, he just won’t participate in a
celebration of that which he considers sin.
And I just think, not only is that his right but isn’t it
actually the definition of tolerance? To actually welcome
alternative lifestyles that are not harmful to others but still
stand your ground in terms of what you believe to be the truth?
I was, for the first time, completely hesitant to offer an
argument because I do admire and love the friend of mine who
left her religion at the price of her own mother threatening to
harm her, but I think her opponent was too harshly judged by
her.
If we believe in the rights of those we disagree with, isn’t it
our obligation to support those rights? Or is silence not an
accomplice to a perceived injustice?
#Post#: 31665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: Jem
Date: May 23, 2019, 3:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Contrarian link ---
>
> And I just think, not only is that his right but isn’t it
actually the definition of tolerance? To actually welcome
alternative lifestyles that are not harmful to others but still
stand your ground in terms of what you believe to be the truth?
>
--- End Quote ---
This, 100%. It is ironic that the "activist" is intolerant of
the orthodox man's beliefs. She is, IMHO, very misguided and
wrong. "Tolerance" does not require uniformity of belief or
thought. Tolerance is coexisting with people who believe
differently and think differently than you do.
#Post#: 31672--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: Isisnin
Date: May 23, 2019, 4:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Gotta say, I don't really understand why someone would invite a
"sinner" into their home or go to the sinner's home. It's kinda
like they just wanna prove or show off that they are tolerant or
polite.
Running into someone you don't approve of and being polite to
them is tolerant. As is not actively campaigning against them.
But actively socializing with "sinners", I don't get it.
#Post#: 31674--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: Jem
Date: May 23, 2019, 5:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Isisnin link ---
>
> Gotta say, I don't really understand why someone would invite
a "sinner" into their home or go to the sinner's home. It's
kinda like they just wanna prove or show off that they are
tolerant or polite.
>
> Running into someone you don't approve of and being polite to
them is tolerant. As is not actively campaigning against them.
But actively socializing with "sinners", I don't get it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can’t speak for everyone, but I was raised to believe, and as
an adult I continue to believe, that we are all sinners. It
isn’t for me to judge anyone else’s sin, that’s for God to do. I
don’t think it’s at all odd to actively socialize with
“sinners.” Jesus did. Everyone I know does.
#Post#: 31676--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: katiekat2009
Date: May 23, 2019, 5:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Love the sinner - hate the sin.
#Post#: 31682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: Isisnin
Date: May 23, 2019, 7:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jem link ---
>
> [quote author=Isisnin link=topic=1153.msg31672#msg31672
date=1558647330]
> Gotta say, I don't really understand why someone would invite
a "sinner" into their home or go to the sinner's home. It's
kinda like they just wanna prove or show off that they are
tolerant or polite.
>
> Running into someone you don't approve of and being polite to
them is tolerant. As is not actively campaigning against them.
But actively socializing with "sinners", I don't get it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can’t speak for everyone, but I was raised to believe, and as
an adult I continue to believe, that we are all sinners. It
isn’t for me to judge anyone else’s sin, that’s for God to do. I
don’t think it’s at all odd to actively socialize with
“sinners.” Jesus did. Everyone I know does.
[/quote]
Even though I was raised in a traditional religious household
that taught about sin, we weren't raised to believe that we are
sinners (though our church's leaders preach that). Our parents
raised us to believe in good and bad, right and wrong. We were
not allowed to play with kids who they considered bad.
To this day, I will be polite to "bad" people, but still don't
socialize with them. Currently, there is a person at work that I
am polite to but will not socialize with as he lies to customers
to get them to apply for the store credit card. If the customers
are declined it negatively affects their credit ratings and
ability to get loans and jobs. I've declined rides home from him
no matter how badly I wanted a ride.
(Very short version of long ending, I told the managers. He
stopped lying to the customers (or at least, not around me) and
stopped offering me a ride. Yea!).
So I really don't understand socializing with people one thinks
of as bad or a sinner. In fact, I've said a few times in my life
"that's the kind of person my parents wouldn't let me play
with."
But kudos to the orthodox person for supporting human rights.
#Post#: 31688--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: Kiwipinball
Date: May 23, 2019, 8:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Isisnin link ---
>
> [quote author=Jem link=topic=1153.msg31674#msg31674
date=1558651073]
> [quote author=Isisnin link=topic=1153.msg31672#msg31672
date=1558647330]
> Gotta say, I don't really understand why someone would invite
a "sinner" into their home or go to the sinner's home. It's
kinda like they just wanna prove or show off that they are
tolerant or polite.
>
> Running into someone you don't approve of and being polite to
them is tolerant. As is not actively campaigning against them.
But actively socializing with "sinners", I don't get it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can’t speak for everyone, but I was raised to believe, and as
an adult I continue to believe, that we are all sinners. It
isn’t for me to judge anyone else’s sin, that’s for God to do. I
don’t think it’s at all odd to actively socialize with
“sinners.” Jesus did. Everyone I know does.
[/quote]
Even though I was raised in a traditional religious household
that taught about sin, we weren't raised to believe that we are
sinners (though our church's leaders preach that). Our parents
raised us to believe in good and bad, right and wrong. We were
not allowed to play with kids who they considered bad.
To this day, I will be polite to "bad" people, but still don't
socialize with them. Currently, there is a person at work that I
am polite to but will not socialize with as he lies to customers
to get them to apply for the store credit card. If the customers
are declined it negatively affects their credit ratings and
ability to get loans and jobs. I've declined rides home from him
no matter how badly I wanted a ride.
(Very short version of long ending, I told the managers. He
stopped lying to the customers (or at least, not around me) and
stopped offering me a ride. Yea!).
So I really don't understand socializing with people one thinks
of as bad or a sinner. In fact, I've said a few times in my life
"that's the kind of person my parents wouldn't let me play
with."
But kudos to the orthodox person for supporting human rights.
[/quote]
It definitely depends on the religion, but I also believe that
everyone is a sinner (in different ways). I do not believe
everyone is bad and actually believe very few people are (I
think in your example, the coworker was doing a bad thing, and
likely also wouldn't have wanted to associate with him, but
that's different to me than being bad). But if everyone is a
sinner (including me!) I can't really avoid socializing with
sinners, even if I wanted to. Now it's possible, they might not
want to socialize with me. Which is their right. But that's not
a criterion for me.
#Post#: 31690--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: kglory
Date: May 23, 2019, 9:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Contrarian link ---
>
> The thing is, although the orthodox (I am an anti-theist, I
believe religion does more harm than good) believes certain
things are a sin, he does not believe that such sinners should
be deprived of human rights, he will accept their hospitality
and offer his own to them, he just won’t participate in a
celebration of that which he considers sin.
>
> And I just think, not only is that his right but isn’t it
actually the definition of tolerance? To actually welcome
alternative lifestyles that are not harmful to others but still
stand your ground in terms of what you believe to be the truth?
>
> If we believe in the rights of those we disagree with, isn’t
it our obligation to support those rights? Or is silence not an
accomplice to a perceived injustice?
>
--- End Quote ---
Won't participate in or attend a gay marriage? Fine. He can do
this and be "tolerant."
Actively votes against gay marriage? Not "tolerant". This is a
non-neutral act, depriving others of their civil rights.
If you treat people nicely to their face, and stab them in the
back at the ballot box, you are not a "tolerant" person. And
maybe he owns it, because he sees it as voting for his own
morality, which is allowed, but you can't have it both ways.
This is what it comes down to for me.
#Post#: 31691--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: kglory
Date: May 23, 2019, 9:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
(And just to be clear, I realize you didn't say anything about
voting! So I'm not assuming this particular person votes one
way or another or abstains.
What I meant was, more broadly, whether I would consider someone
to be an ally or a tolerant person has less to do with the
factors this individual is describing, and more with how their
actions impact the other group / at the very least aren't
standing in the way of other group's civil rights.)
#Post#: 31697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Beliefs
DIR By: lakey
Date: May 23, 2019, 10:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I was, for the first time, completely hesitant to offer an
argument because I do admire and love the friend of mine who
left her religion at the price of her own mother threatening to
harm her, but I think her opponent was too harshly judged by
her.
--- End Quote ---
If this woman was abused or traumatized, she may find it more
difficult than most of us to be tolerant of certain views. She
may have less difficulty with other views as time passes. In a
free and diverse society we have to understand that there will
always be people whose views we dislike. And sometimes we
dislike their views for good reason, at least in our opinion.
I see no problem with Orthodox person's socializing with people
he/she considers sinners. If we stopped socializing with
everyone who engages in what we view as bad behavior or sin,
there would be few people that we could socialize with. I think
we all base those decisions on how harmful the sinful or bad
behavior is to innocent parties. Many people view sin as between
the individual and God, as long as the person isn't committing a
crime or victimizing someone. I'm not bothered when people in my
life hold views about issues like gay marriage, that are
different from mine. However, there have been a couple of people
in my life that I stopped socializing with because their
treatment of individuals was pretty awful. These were the type
of people who lied to get what they wanted, and really didn't
think anything was wrong with that. They also would say really
nasty things about strangers. When I was in high school, the
sixties, kids who were viewed as possibly gay were bullied
something awful. Their school years were a living hell. That
would bother me much more than someone who holds the religious
view that marriage is between a man and a woman, but treats gay
people the same as they treat everyone else.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page