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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 30238--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: lowspark
Date: May 1, 2019, 8:34 am
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--- Quote ---
> I texted Fiona: "What I said was, 'I'm an antinatalist, which
means I think it's immoral to have children. I've thought a lot
about the topic, read up on it, and I'm just flat-out against
having kids for moral reasons, so I hope that fully clears
things up.' "
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> I texted Fiona: "What I said was, 'I'm a vegan, which means I
think it's immoral to eat animal products. I've thought a lot
about the topic, read up on it, and I'm just flat-out against
eating animal products for moral reasons, so I hope that fully
clears things up.' "
--- End Quote ---
I changed the words in red only. Now, if the discussion had been
about Kimmy trying to get Fiona to eat meat, and Fiona had
replied thusly, would it still be an issue?
Again, Kimmy was way over the line. I can see nothing wrong with
Fiona's response. And if people wanted to google it and then
take offense, then I believe it's on them.
If Fiona had gone on to say something like, "and y'all are all
immoral for having kids!" then I'd be like, ok, too much. But in
fact, just as a vegan might view meat eaters as immoral, as long
as they don't go around telling people they are immoral for
doing so, (and I don't see Fiona as having done the equivalent),
then they are not being rude for declining to eat meat, or
declaring their vegan choice, or stating that they feel it's
immoral to eat meat.
#Post#: 30242--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Rose Red
Date: May 1, 2019, 9:22 am
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I think this is getting off topic. It's not about having babies
but how to shut someone down after bean-dipping didn't work. It
could have been any topic.
Unless Fiona (or anyone being pushed around) wanted to reveal
her stance of the subject, firmly say something like "I don't
wish to discuss this anymore. Stop going on about my personal
life. You are ruining this lunch. Stop!" No excuses. No
explanation. No debating. No discussion. Use my method above of
shutting up and staring at them in disbelief. Leave if you have
to.
#Post#: 30244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Hanna
Date: May 1, 2019, 9:29 am
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Sorry if I muddied the waters here. I don't think Fiona
expressing her beliefs is rude, even if she hadn't been dragged
into the conversation.
Kimmy was the rude one.
Is anyone that was there saying Fiona was rude?
#Post#: 30251--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Winterlight
Date: May 1, 2019, 10:21 am
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Kimmy sounds like a pretty awful person. One of these days she's
going to do this to someone who has been told they can't have
children for (painful medical reason) or who has just had a
miscarriage. At that point, she deserves the fallout she gets.
#Post#: 30256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Hanna
Date: May 1, 2019, 11:02 am
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--- Quote from: Winterlight link ---
>
> Kimmy sounds like a pretty awful person. One of these days
she's going to do this to someone who has been told they can't
have children for (painful medical reason) or who has just had a
miscarriage. At that point, she deserves the fallout she gets.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree. Also, this kind of sustained insistence upon
discussing any topic, despite the other person clearly trying to
deflect is really obnoxious.
#Post#: 30258--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Rose Red
Date: May 1, 2019, 11:09 am
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--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> [quote author=Winterlight link=topic=1108.msg30251#msg30251
date=1556724115]
> Kimmy sounds like a pretty awful person. One of these days
she's going to do this to someone who has been told they can't
have children for (painful medical reason) or who has just had a
miscarriage. At that point, she deserves the fallout she gets.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree. Also, this kind of sustained insistence upon
discussing any topic, despite the other person clearly trying to
deflect is really obnoxious.
[/quote]
That won't stop Kimmy. From the OP, Kimmy stated "recommend a
great IVF guy if that's your issue."
#Post#: 30268--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Aleko
Date: May 1, 2019, 1:00 pm
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--- Quote ---
> One of these days she's going to do this to someone who has
been told they can't have children for (painful medical reason)
or who has just had a miscarriage.
--- End Quote ---
Or someone who knows they carry the gene for something utterly
ghastly.
#Post#: 30277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Codewoman
Date: May 1, 2019, 2:15 pm
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--- Quote from: Rose Red link ---
>
> I think this is getting off topic. It's not about having
babies but how to shut someone down after bean-dipping didn't
work. It could have been any topic.
>
> Unless Fiona (or anyone being pushed around) wanted to reveal
her stance of the subject, firmly say something like "I don't
wish to discuss this anymore. Stop going on about my personal
life. You are ruining this lunch. Stop!" No excuses. No
explanation. No debating. No discussion. Use my method above of
shutting up and staring at them in disbelief. Leave if you have
to.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well said.
#Post#: 30293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Tea Drinker
Date: May 1, 2019, 9:46 pm
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I think that bean dipping, saying "I don't want to discuss this.
How about that local sports team?" and a more direct "I said I
am not discussing this. You are not part of my marriage, and do
not get a vote in our reproductive choices" are all reasonable.
But Fiona tried deflecting; the people who think she shouldn't
have said "I'm not having children because I'm an antinatalist"
also had multiple chances to keep the peace. either by picking
up Fiona's attempted subject change or by telling Kimmy to lay
off, because whether Fiona has children is none of her, or
their, business. It's 2019; if Kimmy thought about this at all,
she knew that Fiona knew that IVF exists.
Given that, it was possible that Fionadidn't want children
(which turned out to be the case) or that she had ruled out IVF
for medical reasons or financial reasons. A lot more people will
pressure women (and, less often, men) with something like "I
know a really good IVF clinic" than will offer to pay for that
IVF. A lot of people are uncomfortable saying "I can't afford
that," which is another way that pressuring someone on something
like this is rude: someone who has already pushed that far on
"you should have children" might also insist that whatever other
thing the Fionas need or want to spend their money on can't
possibly be as important as having a child.
I know someone who has two very much-loved children, one
conceived by IVF and the other adopted. The combined expenses of
the IVF and the adoption have left them on thin ice,
financially. That's stressful even in this case; people who
hadn't wanted children that much might resent the children when
they thought about what else they might have been doing, and
would almost certainly resent whoever pressured them into
spending that much money in order to be parents.
#Post#: 30327--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: bopper
Date: May 2, 2019, 2:56 pm
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I think when people say "you should have kids" they mean "You
are a neat person and if it would be good if there were more
people like you." so you could take if like that.
But I recently saw a good response..."No, the bloodline stops
with me."
Sounds very mysterious.
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