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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 30084--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: TeamBhakta
Date: April 28, 2019, 7:44 pm
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--- Quote from: Two Ravens link ---
>
> You know, it’s never occurred to me to interrogate my
childless friends to see if they think it is wrong my son was
born. I don’t think the onus is on me. However, I’d sure as
heck stop hanging around them if I found out that was what they
believed.
>
--- End Quote ---
And yet someone like Kimmy will (in general) get a pass from
society for thinking & saying "I think it's immoral for you to
not have kids." I vaguely remember someone on the old board
saying "Wellll, I don't think two married people are truly a
family if they don't have kids. They're simply a couple,
period."
#Post#: 30086--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Victoria
Date: April 28, 2019, 8:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Two Ravens link ---
>
> You know, it’s never occurred to me to interrogate my
childless friends to see if they think it is wrong my son was
born. I don’t think the onus is on me. However, I’d sure as
heck stop hanging around them if I found out that was what they
believed.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not suggesting that you have to have a checklist of
everyone's moral beliefs, just that not everyone feels the need
to state theirs up front even if they have certain beliefs. So
if there's a belief that's secretly a friendship dealbreaker for
you but not them, you won't necessarily find out unless you ask.
#Post#: 30090--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: TaurusGirl
Date: April 28, 2019, 10:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TeamBhakta link ---
>
> [quote author=Two Ravens link=topic=1108.msg30074#msg30074
date=1556481885]
> You know, it’s never occurred to me to interrogate my
childless friends to see if they think it is wrong my son was
born. I don’t think the onus is on me. However, I’d sure as
heck stop hanging around them if I found out that was what they
believed.
>
--- End Quote ---
And yet someone like Kimmy will (in general) get a pass from
society for thinking & saying "I think it's immoral for you to
not have kids." I vaguely remember someone on the old board
saying "Wellll, I don't think two married people are truly a
family if they don't have kids. They're simply a couple,
period."
[/quote]
THank you TeamBhatka for politely expressing what I've been
thinking. As a childfree person, it is true (in my 40+ years of
open childfree experience) society comes down very hard on those
who choose not to have children, whatever the reason.
I don't sit around and quiz someone for hours on why they have
kids, yet people will endlessly question people who choose not
to.
#Post#: 30098--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Soop
Date: April 29, 2019, 7:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> [quote author=Bales link=topic=1108.msg30046#msg30046
date=1556455025]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg30005#msg30005
date=1556385430]
> [quote author=Victoria link=topic=1108.msg29981#msg29981
date=1556331861]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg29976#msg29976
date=1556328303]
> If you believe something I don’t see any reason to hide it,
unpopular though it may be. There might be social repercussions
but really, if she thinks this I’m not sure why she’s hanging
out with people that she believes are behaving in an immoral way
in the first place.
>
> If this were a friend of mine I’d want to know if they had
such a strongly held belief in opposition to mine. I don’t see
anything rude about expressing it, I do see some problems with
silently judging others she calls friends.
>
> Kimmy was rude and obnoxious. But I don’t think Fiona did
anything wrong or rude.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have quite a few religious and political beliefs and I believe
that people who don't act in accordance with those are behaving
in an immoral way...but I personally can't say I'd have any
friends left if I required all of them to align with all of my
moral stances.
[/quote]
Oh, me too. I think this one is a particularly strongly held
and important belief though. It's definitely beyond thinking
it's wrong to litter.
[/quote]
Isn't it up to Fiona to decide how strongly held her beliefs are
and if she wants to associate with others who don't share it?
It's not as if she is the one who is pushing her beliefs on
others - that was Kimmy.
[/quote]
I think it’s awful to hang around with people while silently
judging them as immoral and hiding your beliefs, particularly if
your friends would likely find those beliefs appalling.
I knew a straight couple that spent time with a gay couple. They
hid their beliefs for a long time, but they firmly believed that
being in a gay relationship was sinful. It eventually came out
and the gay couple didn’t want to be around them any more. In
their shoes I would feel betrayed that they pretended to like
and respect me while sanctimoniously believing they were morally
superior.
I can’t imagine being a parent and finding out I’d had my child
around someone that believed their very existence was immoral.
Kimmy is rude as hell, but Fiona is something else. Maybe they
are cut of the same cloth in a weird way.
[/quote]
Do we know that Fiona believes that for everyone, or judges
everyone immoral? I'm sure if she did, she wouldn't want to be
ever with those with children. There are things I believe for
myself, yet would never push on someone else, including about
having children. And is "immoral" Fiona's word or the OP's
interpretation?
#Post#: 30101--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Kimberami
Date: April 29, 2019, 8:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> I think it’s awful to hang around with people while silently
judging them as immoral and hiding your beliefs, particularly if
your friends would likely find those beliefs appalling.
>
> I knew a straight couple that spent time with a gay couple.
They hid their beliefs for a long time, but they firmly believed
that being in a gay relationship was sinful. It eventually came
out and the gay couple didn’t want to be around them any more.
In their shoes I would feel betrayed that they pretended to like
and respect me while sanctimoniously believing they were morally
superior.
>
> I can’t imagine being a parent and finding out I’d had my
child around someone that believed their very existence was
immoral.
>
> Kimmy is rude as hell, but Fiona is something else. Maybe they
are cut of the same cloth in a weird way.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure that this is as black and white as that. You
(general you) can disagree with an issue but still legitimately
love and cherish a person. This is true even if you don't agree
with all of their life choices. Differing opinions is the reason
why love can be unconditional.
I have a dear friend that has a particular proclivity that I
find distasteful. I would not chose to be a part of this
activity. I accept my friend for who she is, and I know that
this activity is part of who she is. It doesn't change my mind
about my distaste, but I see my friend as more than this
particular activity. I don't feel holier or superior. This is
just one aspect of my life that differs from hers.
As for hiding beliefs, we all have beliefs that we don't feel
the need to broadcast to everyone around us. There are lots of
polarizing issues, and most of us fall on one side of the issue
or the other. There's a good chance that a group of friends have
members who fall on either side. Ideology doesn't come up in
every conversation. Most deep seated beliefs belong on a need to
know basis.
#Post#: 30104--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Victoria
Date: April 29, 2019, 10:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Soop link ---
>
> [snip]
> Do we know that Fiona believes that for everyone, or judges
everyone immoral? I'm sure if she did, she wouldn't want to be
ever with those with children. There are things I believe for
myself, yet would never push on someone else, including about
having children. And is "immoral" Fiona's word or the OP's
interpretation?
>
--- End Quote ---
It is the definition of antinatalism:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism
#Post#: 30110--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: April 29, 2019, 10:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> [quote author=Bales link=topic=1108.msg30046#msg30046
date=1556455025]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg30005#msg30005
date=1556385430]
> [quote author=Victoria link=topic=1108.msg29981#msg29981
date=1556331861]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg29976#msg29976
date=1556328303]
> If you believe something I don’t see any reason to hide it,
unpopular though it may be. There might be social repercussions
but really, if she thinks this I’m not sure why she’s hanging
out with people that she believes are behaving in an immoral way
in the first place.
>
> If this were a friend of mine I’d want to know if they had
such a strongly held belief in opposition to mine. I don’t see
anything rude about expressing it, I do see some problems with
silently judging others she calls friends.
>
> Kimmy was rude and obnoxious. But I don’t think Fiona did
anything wrong or rude.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have quite a few religious and political beliefs and I believe
that people who don't act in accordance with those are behaving
in an immoral way...but I personally can't say I'd have any
friends left if I required all of them to align with all of my
moral stances.
[/quote]
Oh, me too. I think this one is a particularly strongly held
and important belief though. It's definitely beyond thinking
it's wrong to litter.
[/quote]
Isn't it up to Fiona to decide how strongly held her beliefs are
and if she wants to associate with others who don't share it?
It's not as if she is the one who is pushing her beliefs on
others - that was Kimmy.
[/quote]
I think it’s awful to hang around with people while silently
judging them as immoral and hiding your beliefs, particularly if
your friends would likely find those beliefs appalling.
I knew a straight couple that spent time with a gay couple. They
hid their beliefs for a long time, but they firmly believed that
being in a gay relationship was sinful. It eventually came out
and the gay couple didn’t want to be around them any more. In
their shoes I would feel betrayed that they pretended to like
and respect me while sanctimoniously believing they were morally
superior.
I can’t imagine being a parent and finding out I’d had my child
around someone that believed their very existence was immoral.
Kimmy is rude as hell, but Fiona is something else. Maybe they
are cut of the same cloth in a weird way.
[/quote]
You do not know if everyone in the group found their beliefs
appalling. Some just sounded interested or intrigued.
An Antinatalist can hold their beliefs while continuing to
understand that others perform an action that they think are
unethical because the societal norm supports the opposing
position. Some societies believed in human sacrifice. I believe
that action is immoral but I do not consider the people immoral
because they were accepting of their social norms.
Based on your stance, no Christian should every socialize with
an atheist or vice versa.
#Post#: 30114--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Hanna
Date: April 29, 2019, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TeamBhakta link ---
>
> [quote author=Two Ravens link=topic=1108.msg30074#msg30074
date=1556481885]
> You know, it’s never occurred to me to interrogate my
childless friends to see if they think it is wrong my son was
born. I don’t think the onus is on me. However, I’d sure as
heck stop hanging around them if I found out that was what they
believed.
>
--- End Quote ---
And yet someone like Kimmy will (in general) get a pass from
society for thinking & saying "I think it's immoral for you to
not have kids." I vaguely remember someone on the old board
saying "Wellll, I don't think two married people are truly a
family if they don't have kids. They're simply a couple,
period."
[/quote]
I'm with Two Ravens on this. I wouldn't think to ask, but I
would distance myself from someone if I found out they believed
that other people were either moral or immoral for having or not
having children. Or that they were only a family if kids were
involved. Perhaps they are tolerant of my not doing whatever
they think is right, but I am able to be tolerant of this kind
of belief. If they really just felt it was what was right for
them personally, that I can accept.
Maybe it seems like society as a whole gives people a pass for
expressing that type of judgement of others. It seems to me
more like many just roll their eyes and avoid them as much as
possible. I don't think someone with beliefs like that would
ever be welcome around my friends, who are a mix of
parents/non-parents, single/married/living together,
gay/straight.
There are plenty of different beliefs I respect, but this is not
one. I do have friends with religious and political beliefs
that are different than mine. It's no secret anyone is
harboring. I don't think they are immoral or I'd end the
friendship. I presume they don't think that about me either
because they aren't the types to remain friends with people who
they think are immoral. We don't really discuss it much without
massive amounts of alcohol involved.
#Post#: 30142--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: GardenGal
Date: April 29, 2019, 5:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Kimpossible link ---
>
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg30053#msg30053
date=1556461123]
> I think it’s awful to hang around with people while silently
judging them as immoral and hiding your beliefs, particularly if
your friends would likely find those beliefs appalling.
>
> I knew a straight couple that spent time with a gay couple.
They hid their beliefs for a long time, but they firmly believed
that being in a gay relationship was sinful. It eventually came
out and the gay couple didn’t want to be around them any more.
In their shoes I would feel betrayed that they pretended to like
and respect me while sanctimoniously believing they were morally
superior.
>
> I can’t imagine being a parent and finding out I’d had my
child around someone that believed their very existence was
immoral.
>
> Kimmy is rude as hell, but Fiona is something else. Maybe they
are cut of the same cloth in a weird way.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure that this is as black and white as that. You
(general you) can disagree with an issue but still legitimately
love and cherish a person. This is true even if you don't agree
with all of their life choices. Differing opinions is the reason
why love can be unconditional.
I have a dear friend that has a particular proclivity that I
find distasteful. I would not chose to be a part of this
activity. I accept my friend for who she is, and I know that
this activity is part of who she is. It doesn't change my mind
about my distaste, but I see my friend as more than this
particular activity. I don't feel holier or superior. This is
just one aspect of my life that differs from hers.
As for hiding beliefs, we all have beliefs that we don't feel
the need to broadcast to everyone around us. There are lots of
polarizing issues, and most of us fall on one side of the issue
or the other. There's a good chance that a group of friends have
members who fall on either side. Ideology doesn't come up in
every conversation. Most deep seated beliefs belong on a need to
know basis.
[/quote]
Kimpossible - very well said! My best friend and I disagree on
something that is somewhat important to us both, but not so
important that it affects our friendship of 50+ years. We don't
talk about the issue very much, except that it comes up
occasionally and we agree to disagree, as it isn't a major part
of either of our lives.
#Post#: 30183--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: JeanFromBNA
Date: April 30, 2019, 12:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
As the Dowager Countess of Grantham once said, "I have plenty of
friends I don't like!"
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