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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 29987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Aleko
Date: April 27, 2019, 2:11 am
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I absolutely don't agree that Fiona should have 'gone and sat
somewhere else' or 'gone to the bathroom'. She was not in any
way obligated to run away (which is what that would amount to).
Nor would that even necessarily work, since Kimmy sounds quite
prepared to follow her round the room, or wait for her to come
back from the bathroom and start in on her again.
But when bean-dipping failed, she should have told Kimmy
outright (and loudly, so that nobody in the company could be in
any doubt how much Kimmy was over the line) 'Kimmy, I have made
clear I don't want to discuss this with you. You are
disrespecting my wishes. Drop it. Now.' Did she actually do
that at any point? To my mind, that was the last-but-one resort
which she should have tried before saying something that she
knew would likely be offensive or hurtful to others there.
There are all sorts of reasons why a person might very much not
want to discuss their childless state at a party, and if she
just put it like that, even if Kimmy refused to stop Fiona would
surely have got support from other in shutting her up.
#Post#: 29999--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Isisnin
Date: April 27, 2019, 9:43 am
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Lots of good posts. Many of which I agree with, a couple I
don't. After reading all, I was thinking that while Kimmy was
very wrong to constantly push her belief that Fiona should have
kids, I also felt that Fiona could have "done something" other
that bring up antinatalism. But then I reread the OP's post.
Kimmy had crossed the line by constantly pressuring Fiona into
agreeing to have children, but then she went to whatever is
beyond crossing the line by questioning Fiona's and her
husband's medical conditions by bringing up IVF. To expect Fiona
to discuss in front of all those people her and her husband's
medical conditions is way beyond the line. And into the future,
Kimmy would have kept bringing this up.
Years back, with a group of friends I hung out with, Linda would
often mention my weight (50 lbs over). I always politely
deflected. One day, she spoke with great enthusiasm about a new
reality show, The Biggest Loser, then she turned to me and said
"see, it can be done". That did it. I looked at her and said
"why do you constantly bring up my weight? I have never, ever
brought up your smoking (major chain smoker) ."
Others thought I had gone too far (like Victoria said here "..I
also think that the person who states their opinion first/forces
it on the other party isn't blamed as the "bad guy/mood killer"
as much as the victim/dissenter."), but Linda has never brought
up my weight again. I do not regret my standing up to her at
all.
So I'm team Fiona.
#Post#: 30000--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Jem
Date: April 27, 2019, 10:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Isisnin I love your response to the smoker!
I also agree with the PP who mentioned that possibly Fiona and
this group are just not a good fit. We all have various beliefs,
and few people line up exactly on all of them. But sometimes
belief systems are simply too different for the people to be
comparable as friends.
Generally speaking, I think people should choose different
friends rather than expect another person to change views you
find offensive. Either that or learn to coexist knowing you
don’t agree and strive to eventually find middle ground.
#Post#: 30005--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Hanna
Date: April 27, 2019, 12:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Victoria link ---
>
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg29976#msg29976
date=1556328303]
> If you believe something I don’t see any reason to hide it,
unpopular though it may be. There might be social repercussions
but really, if she thinks this I’m not sure why she’s hanging
out with people that she believes are behaving in an immoral way
in the first place.
>
> If this were a friend of mine I’d want to know if they had
such a strongly held belief in opposition to mine. I don’t see
anything rude about expressing it, I do see some problems with
silently judging others she calls friends.
>
> Kimmy was rude and obnoxious. But I don’t think Fiona did
anything wrong or rude.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have quite a few religious and political beliefs and I believe
that people who don't act in accordance with those are behaving
in an immoral way...but I personally can't say I'd have any
friends left if I required all of them to align with all of my
moral stances.
[/quote]
Oh, me too. I think this one is a particularly strongly held
and important belief though. It's definitely beyond thinking
it's wrong to litter.
#Post#: 30040--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: HenrysMom
Date: April 27, 2019, 11:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I just don’t understand why people feel they have to push their
beliefs/agendas/POV’s on others. Kimmie went over the line the
minute she didn’t accept Fiona’s first statement and continued
badgering the poor woman. So, I (having been in Fiona’s shoes)
think that Fiona showed a great deal of patience in dealing with
this rudeness before finally telling everyone about her
anti-natalism.
#Post#: 30046--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Bales
Date: April 28, 2019, 7:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> [quote author=Victoria link=topic=1108.msg29981#msg29981
date=1556331861]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg29976#msg29976
date=1556328303]
> If you believe something I don’t see any reason to hide it,
unpopular though it may be. There might be social repercussions
but really, if she thinks this I’m not sure why she’s hanging
out with people that she believes are behaving in an immoral way
in the first place.
>
> If this were a friend of mine I’d want to know if they had
such a strongly held belief in opposition to mine. I don’t see
anything rude about expressing it, I do see some problems with
silently judging others she calls friends.
>
> Kimmy was rude and obnoxious. But I don’t think Fiona did
anything wrong or rude.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have quite a few religious and political beliefs and I believe
that people who don't act in accordance with those are behaving
in an immoral way...but I personally can't say I'd have any
friends left if I required all of them to align with all of my
moral stances.
[/quote]
Oh, me too. I think this one is a particularly strongly held
and important belief though. It's definitely beyond thinking
it's wrong to litter.
[/quote]
Isn't it up to Fiona to decide how strongly held her beliefs are
and if she wants to associate with others who don't share it?
It's not as if she is the one who is pushing her beliefs on
others - that was Kimmy.
#Post#: 30053--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Hanna
Date: April 28, 2019, 9:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bales link ---
>
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg30005#msg30005
date=1556385430]
> [quote author=Victoria link=topic=1108.msg29981#msg29981
date=1556331861]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg29976#msg29976
date=1556328303]
> If you believe something I don’t see any reason to hide it,
unpopular though it may be. There might be social repercussions
but really, if she thinks this I’m not sure why she’s hanging
out with people that she believes are behaving in an immoral way
in the first place.
>
> If this were a friend of mine I’d want to know if they had
such a strongly held belief in opposition to mine. I don’t see
anything rude about expressing it, I do see some problems with
silently judging others she calls friends.
>
> Kimmy was rude and obnoxious. But I don’t think Fiona did
anything wrong or rude.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have quite a few religious and political beliefs and I believe
that people who don't act in accordance with those are behaving
in an immoral way...but I personally can't say I'd have any
friends left if I required all of them to align with all of my
moral stances.
[/quote]
Oh, me too. I think this one is a particularly strongly held
and important belief though. It's definitely beyond thinking
it's wrong to litter.
[/quote]
Isn't it up to Fiona to decide how strongly held her beliefs are
and if she wants to associate with others who don't share it?
It's not as if she is the one who is pushing her beliefs on
others - that was Kimmy.
[/quote]
I think it’s awful to hang around with people while silently
judging them as immoral and hiding your beliefs, particularly if
your friends would likely find those beliefs appalling.
I knew a straight couple that spent time with a gay couple. They
hid their beliefs for a long time, but they firmly believed that
being in a gay relationship was sinful. It eventually came out
and the gay couple didn’t want to be around them any more. In
their shoes I would feel betrayed that they pretended to like
and respect me while sanctimoniously believing they were morally
superior.
I can’t imagine being a parent and finding out I’d had my child
around someone that believed their very existence was immoral.
Kimmy is rude as hell, but Fiona is something else. Maybe they
are cut of the same cloth in a weird way.
#Post#: 30055--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: TeamBhakta
Date: April 28, 2019, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Rude me would have asked "Why should you care about my empty
uterus ? Are you wanting me to carry your unborn child ?"
#Post#: 30065--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Victoria
Date: April 28, 2019, 12:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> [quote author=Bales link=topic=1108.msg30046#msg30046
date=1556455025]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg30005#msg30005
date=1556385430]
> [quote author=Victoria link=topic=1108.msg29981#msg29981
date=1556331861]
> [quote author=Hanna link=topic=1108.msg29976#msg29976
date=1556328303]
> If you believe something I don’t see any reason to hide it,
unpopular though it may be. There might be social repercussions
but really, if she thinks this I’m not sure why she’s hanging
out with people that she believes are behaving in an immoral way
in the first place.
>
> If this were a friend of mine I’d want to know if they had
such a strongly held belief in opposition to mine. I don’t see
anything rude about expressing it, I do see some problems with
silently judging others she calls friends.
>
> Kimmy was rude and obnoxious. But I don’t think Fiona did
anything wrong or rude.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have quite a few religious and political beliefs and I believe
that people who don't act in accordance with those are behaving
in an immoral way...but I personally can't say I'd have any
friends left if I required all of them to align with all of my
moral stances.
[/quote]
Oh, me too. I think this one is a particularly strongly held
and important belief though. It's definitely beyond thinking
it's wrong to litter.
[/quote]
Isn't it up to Fiona to decide how strongly held her beliefs are
and if she wants to associate with others who don't share it?
It's not as if she is the one who is pushing her beliefs on
others - that was Kimmy.
[/quote]
I think it’s awful to hang around with people while silently
judging them as immoral and hiding your beliefs, particularly if
your friends would likely find those beliefs appalling.
I knew a straight couple that spent time with a gay couple. They
hid their beliefs for a long time, but they firmly believed that
being in a gay relationship was sinful. It eventually came out
and the gay couple didn’t want to be around them any more. In
their shoes I would feel betrayed that they pretended to like
and respect me while sanctimoniously believing they were morally
superior.
I can’t imagine being a parent and finding out I’d had my child
around someone that believed their very existence was immoral.
Kimmy is rude as hell, but Fiona is something else. Maybe they
are cut of the same cloth in a weird way.
[/quote]
I think that if your beliefs are strong enough that you wouldn't
associate with people of a different belief, the onus is on you
to find that out rather than assuming everyone shares your
particular stance. It's also tricky because some people see
certain things as choices or parts of other people, "I love
so-and-so but don't love that she has [insert trait] or does
[insert thing]" and other people see those same things as
important and/or inseparable from themselves.
I know a ton of people who are vegan, which involves a strong
moral component. When we go out they get vegan items, they don't
wear leather, they get nothing if they can't get anything vegan,
etc. But they don't feel the need to stop associating with me
altogether because I'm not vegan or to constantly tell me that
I'm an immoral person for eating meat. Some people who are vegan
[I]would[/I] do that and would feel like they were betraying
their ethics if they didn't try to convert other people and talk
about it, but they have to be the ones to decide where the line
is.
I also think that the subject of whether or not Fiona is in the
wrong or "something else" for holding this particular belief is
a different subject that whether or not she was wrong to
announce that she has the belief in the way that she did.
#Post#: 30074--------------------------------------------------
Re: Revealing dissent vs. keeping the peace
DIR By: Two Ravens
Date: April 28, 2019, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You know, it’s never occurred to me to interrogate my childless
friends to see if they think it is wrong my son was born. I
don’t think the onus is on me. However, I’d sure as heck stop
hanging around them if I found out that was what they believed.
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