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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 28788--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: hovlane
Date: April 1, 2019, 7:46 pm
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What irritates me is when someone says "what if she were your
wife/mother/daughter/sister/other relative/friend." It
shouldn't matter. It's like saying well, it's okay to harass a
woman as long as I don't know her. I was raped. I am your wife,
your mother, your daughter, your sister, your friend. No, not
literally, but does that make it somehow less horrific if the
man spouting this crap doesn't know me? Obviously it won't have
the emotional toll that it would, but don't minimize it because
you don't know the victim.
#Post#: 28789--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Bales
Date: April 1, 2019, 9:33 pm
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--- Quote from: hovlane link ---
>
> What irritates me is when someone says "what if she were your
wife/mother/daughter/sister/other relative/friend." It
shouldn't matter. It's like saying well, it's okay to harass a
woman as long as I don't know her. I was raped. I am your wife,
your mother, your daughter, your sister, your friend. No, not
literally, but does that make it somehow less horrific if the
man spouting this crap doesn't know me? Obviously it won't have
the emotional toll that it would, but don't minimize it because
you don't know the victim.
>
--- End Quote ---
Some people can't relate unless you make it tangible to them in
many situations. It's easy to forget about disaster victims,
for example, until a disaster affects you or someone you love
and you gain that perspective. It doesn't mean the disaster is
any less disastrous; it's just not something they can relate to
or perhaps even comprehend without reframing it from a closer
aspect.
#Post#: 28798--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: April 2, 2019, 8:25 am
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--- Quote from: hovlane link ---
>
> She was 15.
>
> As for your assertion that men can be reluctant to speak up
when they see a woman being harassed under the guise of "she can
stand up for herself" perhaps that's true. If so, she'll let him
know. Is the male ego so fragile they'll risk seeing someone
harassed (or worse) because they're afraid of being embarrassed?
>
--- End Quote ---
I refuse to assume the surrounding men were reluctant to speak
up. In the article, it clearly states that the flight was pretty
empty so we don't even know if a man was near. Also, the 2 women
who did intervene were seated in front and in back of the man
and child and more likely to be able to over hear a conversation
then anyone else.
Also, in my experience, men are less likely to listen in on
other's conversations or pay attention to what is going on
around them if it does not directly affect them. We have no idea
if they, or anyone else, was were aware of the actions
occurring.
Even as a female bystander, what I would have seen was 2 women
confronting a man, one going to get the proper authorities who
immediately addressed the situation, what ever it was. I would
have had no knowledge to engage in the confrontation nor would I
have added additional value by interjecting.
#Post#: 28809--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Contrarian
Date: April 2, 2019, 1:58 pm
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I had posted an over the top rant.
So I deleted it.
I am so sick of manbashing. And believe me, it was once a fun,
and I thought innocent pastime of mine.
I see no evidence that every man on that plane was aware of what
was happening and didn’t care.
I also see no evidence of every single woman on the plane
standing up and having a full out intervention.
I see no help is pointing out the gender, race or culture of the
people who became aware and helped.
I also don’t understand why so many people on this site avoid
confrontation because of anxiety but expect that no male (with
the exception of autistic males) may also experience that same
thing. Especially those who have tried to help and been
chastised.
I most recently saw a pregnant woman yell at a man for offering
her his seat. It happens. I do t agree men should change their
behaviour, but no one likes to be yelled at and accused of
sexism.
So what I’m reading is a 15 year old, (everyone on the plane
must have known her age, it’s probably unusual my daughter were
mistaken for being in their 20’s since about 14) was being
harassed, everyone on the plane heard it and knew what was
happening, and no man said anything, so all the men are guilty,
and the women that said nothing just happened to know it was
already being taken care of? Sounds totally reasonable.
#Post#: 28844--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Raintree
Date: April 3, 2019, 1:19 am
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--- Quote from: pierrotlunaire0 link ---
>
> To follow up on what Toots just said:
>
> Years ago at a job, there was a group of mostly women with a
few men in the lunchroom, and somehow we got talking about
creepy/harassing encounters we had had. Every woman there had a
story of her own (the man who ran up to a woman in a Walmart
parking lot and exposed himself, the woman who turned around in
a drugstore to say, "Will you stop standing so close to me?"
only to realize that the man was openly masturbating, and so on
and so forth).
>
> So every woman there had a personal experience, and you could
see that the men were openly shocked that this was so common.
This really happened to us?!? Yes, this is something that every
woman must be aware of always. The guys had no idea.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have had that same conversation in a group. Every woman had a
story (or several) and every man was shocked that every woman
had a story. They thought it was uncommon.
#Post#: 28946--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Twik
Date: April 4, 2019, 2:53 pm
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Perhaps I'm the blind one, but I've never heard a woman get
upset with a man for offering a seat or holding a door. Perhaps
it's a Canadian thing.
I did discover early that men often don't "get" what harassment
can be like, or how frequently it happens. I remember in
university telling a male friend what I at the time considered a
funny story - how a huge drunk harassed me at a university
function until I snuck out the door and ran home like Usain
Bolt.
Instead of laughing, my friend got very upset. "That's not
right! You shouldn't have to leave a university building like
that! You pay the same fees as the rest of us, you shouldn't be
pushed out by another student." I realized that for him, it
wasn't something he normally thought about. And he was right, it
wasn't really as funny a story as I'd thought.
#Post#: 29025--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: hovlane
Date: April 6, 2019, 6:57 pm
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I think it's an anecdotal thing-it probably happens but I don't
think it's the norm. If a woman gets upset it's her issue--she
should just say no thank you rather than embarrass someone who
is just trying to abide by social norms. She looks like the
jerk, not him.
As for your story while at university, your friend's anger was
misplaced. You leaving had nothing to do with paying the same
fees, but rather his harassment of you and your reluctance to
call him out on it. I hope when you tell this story in the
future, you will understand that it was about power, and we need
to take ours back. There is nothing funny about having to escape
from a drunk who is harassing you.
#Post#: 29274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: LifeOnPluto
Date: April 12, 2019, 11:37 pm
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--- Quote from: Kiwipinball link ---
>
> I think one of the reasons it can be so much
scarier/traumatizing for women (I'm talking about unwanted
attention/low levels of harassment here) is that in the back of
many/most women's minds is what could happen if they say no (at
all, too forcefully, in the wrong way). There are women who have
been murdered for rejecting men. It's not common, but it has
happened. Men have attacked women for rejecting them
(physically, verbally, etc). So for me and my friends, when
there was a guy (or guys) making unwanted "advances" (I don't
think most of them were actually hitting on us - they were
clearly going about it ways that no one would expect to lead to
a date), we had to try to balance how to get out of the
situation without unduly angering the guy - because we didn't
know what he'd do. Some of my friends and I would actually be
mad at each other after the fact. I'd think they were being too
nice (e.g. not sending signal to others who might be inclined to
help that we were NOT okay with the situation) and they thought
I was being too cold (e.g. increasing the chance of a very
negative reaction from the guy). The thing is, none of us were
wrong. There's no way to tell ahead of time what the
consequences are. But when you're not sure you can safely tell
someone to leave you alone, unwanted attention is much more
traumatic.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think too, even without the threat of violence (either
physical or verbal), women have so often been socialised not to
"hurt men's feelings" that they are reluctant to speak up. It
also doesn't help that sometimes, when sharing stories about
guys who were creepy and/or annoying, the reaction - from both
men and women - is "oh, he was probably just socially clueless!
I'll never forget the time in my 20s when two (female) friends
and I were at the pub. A guy came over, and we chatted for a
bit. Then he started asking one of my friends for her number.
She told him "no thanks" politely... and he just didn't seem to
want to hear it. He kept on pressing her for a reason. "But why
not? I don't understand why you don't want to give me your
number!" When she said "I'm not really interested in dating you"
his quizzing ramped up even more. "Was it something I've said?
Something I've done?" Finally, he asked her if she was a
lesbian! (Because in his mind, that was clearly the only reason
why a single woman would not want to date him ::) )
And none of us told him to take a hike. Afterwards, we all
agreed that he was a total pest, but none of us wanted to
"upset him". And when we told other people (especially older
people, like our parents), the reaction was largely "Poor bloke
just wanted a date, that's all."
#Post#: 29311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Kiwipinball
Date: April 14, 2019, 5:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LifeOnPluto link ---
>
> [quote author=Kiwipinball link=topic=1064.msg28738#msg28738
date=1554086291]
> I think one of the reasons it can be so much
scarier/traumatizing for women (I'm talking about unwanted
attention/low levels of harassment here) is that in the back of
many/most women's minds is what could happen if they say no (at
all, too forcefully, in the wrong way). There are women who have
been murdered for rejecting men. It's not common, but it has
happened. Men have attacked women for rejecting them
(physically, verbally, etc). So for me and my friends, when
there was a guy (or guys) making unwanted "advances" (I don't
think most of them were actually hitting on us - they were
clearly going about it ways that no one would expect to lead to
a date), we had to try to balance how to get out of the
situation without unduly angering the guy - because we didn't
know what he'd do. Some of my friends and I would actually be
mad at each other after the fact. I'd think they were being too
nice (e.g. not sending signal to others who might be inclined to
help that we were NOT okay with the situation) and they thought
I was being too cold (e.g. increasing the chance of a very
negative reaction from the guy). The thing is, none of us were
wrong. There's no way to tell ahead of time what the
consequences are. But when you're not sure you can safely tell
someone to leave you alone, unwanted attention is much more
traumatic.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think too, even without the threat of violence (either
physical or verbal), women have so often been socialised not to
"hurt men's feelings" that they are reluctant to speak up. It
also doesn't help that sometimes, when sharing stories about
guys who were creepy and/or annoying, the reaction - from both
men and women - is "oh, he was probably just socially clueless!
I'll never forget the time in my 20s when two (female) friends
and I were at the pub. A guy came over, and we chatted for a
bit. Then he started asking one of my friends for her number.
She told him "no thanks" politely... and he just didn't seem to
want to hear it. He kept on pressing her for a reason. "But why
not? I don't understand why you don't want to give me your
number!" When she said "I'm not really interested in dating you"
his quizzing ramped up even more. "Was it something I've said?
Something I've done?" Finally, he asked her if she was a
lesbian! (Because in his mind, that was clearly the only reason
why a single woman would not want to date him ::) )
And none of us told him to take a hike. Afterwards, we all
agreed that he was a total pest, but none of us wanted to
"upset him". And when we told other people (especially older
people, like our parents), the reaction was largely "Poor bloke
just wanted a date, that's all."
[/quote]
That's so annoying. Yes, he did want a date. Which is fine. But
he should have accepted no the first time she told him.
#Post#: 29313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: STiG
Date: April 14, 2019, 5:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I was reading a story on Facebook today, whether it was true or
not, I don't know but it was certainly plausible.
A mother had been called to the school because her daughter had
punched a guy in the face. Twice. And her daughter was the one
in trouble. But the mother quickly turned it around on them and
said that she wanted the boy charged for sexual assault. He'd
twanged the girl's bra band, repeatedly, the last time doing it
so hard that it came undone. The girl had repeatedly told him
to stop. Told her male teacher who told her to ignore it.
Finally had enough and plowed him one. Twice. He was a foot
taller and 50 pounds heavier but she was the one in trouble.
Mom turned it around on the male teacher. 'Why don't you come
over here so I can touch the front of your pants? No? How
about you go twang the boy's mother's bra? Or come over here
and twang mine? You think that's inappropriate? How is it any
more appropriate if it is a 15 year old girl?' She got up, told
the boy she hoped he'd learned her lesson, and told them she'd
be reporting the incident to the school board and was taking her
daughter home. And if it ever happened again, she would be
having the perpetrator charged with sexual assault.
Could have heard a pin drop in the room as she left. And the
school board read the principal and teacher the riot act for
doing nothing to stop the boy.
If I'd had a daughter, I'd hope I'd have done the same thing,
And if I'd had a son, I hope I'd never have needed to attend the
school because he'd never have pulled this stunt.
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