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#Post#: 28463--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Twik
Date: March 27, 2019, 12:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> [quote author=Twik link=topic=1064.msg28453#msg28453
date=1553700408]
> I think this is a side issue, but important in its own right.
The travel/hospitality industry has been built on a general
trust that we are all decent human beings, and won't abuse each
other during travel. But this is a "this is why we can't have
nice things" situation. Carriers and hotels will, I predict,
have to start putting in more proactive means of keeping
children travelling solo safe, not to mention considering
specific needs of women solo travellers.
>
> I remember many years ago my cousin, a flight attendant,
telling how when a pre-teen child was left stranded overnight by
a cancelled flight, the attendants themselves decided to take
her to their room so she didn't have to stay alone in an
almost-empty airport. Nowadays that would be problematic in its
own right, but there has to be a solution. Just today there was
a news story about a 15 year old girl left without a flight due
to airline snafus, having to sit up all night in the airport.
There should be a guarantee that this doesn't happen. If nothing
else, she should have been provided with a room at an airport
hotel, and verified safe transport to and from there.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm sure each airline is different, but I know that
unaccompanied minors services for some are only available for
ages 5 to 14. They also only allow use of direct flights and
charge an upcharge. So I still think the parents must take some
responsibility for deciding they are ok with their 15 year old
traveling alone and doing pre-planning if a flight gets
cancelled or diverted. In the case noted, the 15 year old was
doing a connecting flight. I don't think it is necessarily fair
of the parents to want to shift temporary guardianship
responsibility to an airline without paying a premium for that
service.
[/quote]
Well, the issue here was that between two airlines, the girl was
given completely the wrong advice and information. And that
15-18 or so gap is troublesome - she's not exactly a child, but
would, for example, not be legally allowed to get her own hotel
room. In that case, I think it's indefensible for the airlines
who caused the unexpected delay to not take steps to protect
her. Saying "She's 15 and we just kicked her out of her
reservation, she's on her own," is not good customer service.
#Post#: 28464--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: VorFemme
Date: March 27, 2019, 12:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
A family is suing an airline for leaving the 15 year old girl at
the airport while Mom & brother were seated further back -
apparently the girl tried to phone her mother, but the phone was
already set to "airline mode" and the stewardesses would not let
her go back & get her mother. So halfway to the destination,
Mom finds out that her daughter is not on the "every seat
filled" plane (overbooked) and has a conniption fit (not
unexpected) and is suing.
If someone says that they need to talk to their mother on the
plane, it might not be a 15 year old girl another time, it might
be a 50 year old with a 75 year old mother seated separately who
needs help boarding & deplaning as well as with other functions
on the ground, just not constant attention on the plane. And
none of these "get off the plane, we need your seat for someone
else" situations seem to have been handled well lately - the
news is full of bad decisions that way. Offer them money or
extra tickets or something to sweeten the "your seat belongs to
someone else" situation if they're having to get off or delay
their travel. Sheesh...
forget bad etiquette, that's bad business!
#Post#: 28465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: March 27, 2019, 1:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Twik link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1064.msg28461#msg28461
date=1553703865]
> [quote author=Twik link=topic=1064.msg28453#msg28453
date=1553700408]
> I think this is a side issue, but important in its own right.
The travel/hospitality industry has been built on a general
trust that we are all decent human beings, and won't abuse each
other during travel. But this is a "this is why we can't have
nice things" situation. Carriers and hotels will, I predict,
have to start putting in more proactive means of keeping
children travelling solo safe, not to mention considering
specific needs of women solo travellers.
>
> I remember many years ago my cousin, a flight attendant,
telling how when a pre-teen child was left stranded overnight by
a cancelled flight, the attendants themselves decided to take
her to their room so she didn't have to stay alone in an
almost-empty airport. Nowadays that would be problematic in its
own right, but there has to be a solution. Just today there was
a news story about a 15 year old girl left without a flight due
to airline snafus, having to sit up all night in the airport.
There should be a guarantee that this doesn't happen. If nothing
else, she should have been provided with a room at an airport
hotel, and verified safe transport to and from there.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm sure each airline is different, but I know that
unaccompanied minors services for some are only available for
ages 5 to 14. They also only allow use of direct flights and
charge an upcharge. So I still think the parents must take some
responsibility for deciding they are ok with their 15 year old
traveling alone and doing pre-planning if a flight gets
cancelled or diverted. In the case noted, the 15 year old was
doing a connecting flight. I don't think it is necessarily fair
of the parents to want to shift temporary guardianship
responsibility to an airline without paying a premium for that
service.
[/quote]
Well, the issue here was that between two airlines, the girl was
given completely the wrong advice and information. And that
15-18 or so gap is troublesome - she's not exactly a child, but
would, for example, not be legally allowed to get her own hotel
room. In that case, I think it's indefensible for the airlines
who caused the unexpected delay to not take steps to protect
her. Saying "She's 15 and we just kicked her out of her
reservation, she's on her own," is not good customer service.
[/quote]
It was bad customer service for anyone. I've had terrible
experiences when doing code shares between airlines or when
being switched from one airline to another because of a
cancelled or missed flights. Delayed flights, rerouted flights,
and other disruptions is just a fact of airline travel. The
point I was trying to make is the airlines make no suggestion
that they would offer a better experience for a 15 year old than
they would a 50 year old. It is the parents who decided to allow
their 15 year old to travel as an adult. The story states that
the problem originated in her airport of origin and they and she
knew she was getting on a flight without a completed ticket.
From the story "But WestJet agents in Kelowna weren't able to
"complete" her new ticket or give her a boarding pass, the
family said. "
Yes, it would have been a great story if there had been this
compassionate customer service rep who magically appeared ready
to guide the youngster to a nearby hotel. My experience is that
at most smaller airports, there are very few customer service
reps and they even indicated that both of the involved airlines
counters were closed. I just think it's wrong to expect a
business to assume a guardian role for a minor when they have
not been contracted to assume that role. This minor traveling as
an adult with her parent's permission did not receive less
service than other adult travelers.
--- Quote from: VorFemme link ---
>
> A family is suing an airline for leaving the 15 year old girl
at the airport while Mom & brother were seated further back -
apparently the girl tried to phone her mother, but the phone was
already set to "airline mode" and the stewardesses would not let
her go back & get her mother. So halfway to the destination,
Mom finds out that her daughter is not on the "every seat
filled" plane (overbooked) and has a conniption fit (not
unexpected) and is suing.
>
> If someone says that they need to talk to their mother on the
plane, it might not be a 15 year old girl another time, it might
be a 50 year old with a 75 year old mother seated separately who
needs help boarding & deplaning as well as with other functions
on the ground, just not constant attention on the plane. And
none of these "get off the plane, we need your seat for someone
else" situations seem to have been handled well lately - the
news is full of bad decisions that way. Offer them money or
extra tickets or something to sweeten the "your seat belongs to
someone else" situation if they're having to get off or delay
their travel. Sheesh...
> forget bad etiquette, that's bad business!
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I can't understand from this story if the 15 year old was
boarding later and got bumped from her seat or was on the flight
and told to give up her seat. But either way, it was extremely
poor customer service if she had a confirmed boarding pass and
prevented from boarding because someone else already had boarded
with the same seat assignment or was asked to de-board. I'm
shocked that if she told the gate agent or airline attendant
that she was 15 and had family on the flight, that they would
not allow her to communicate with her traveling companions or
have an agent notify them so that they could also de-board.
#Post#: 28470--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: pierrotlunaire0
Date: March 27, 2019, 3:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
When I read the story (before coming here), the thing that
struck me was that only female passengers stepped in, and it
specifically mentioned that no male passenger saw anything wrong
with what was happening.
I was reminded of the time when I worked at a company that
installed a panic button at the receptionist's station at the
front door. This was prompted because a man walked in off the
street and proceeded to disrobe from the waist down. They
wanted to give the receptionist something so that she could
alert others if she felt she might be in danger (there was a bit
of distance between the receptionist and where anyone else was).
We were all instructed what the alarm sounded like.
One afternoon, the alarm sounded. Within 15 seconds, there were
about 25 employees piling into the reception area, concerned
that something was happening. As it turned out, it was a test
of the system. But all of the employees who responded were
female. Not one male employee even got up from their desk. It
was explained that the alarm meant someone in the reception area
needed help, and all employees needed to respond. What if it
had been a fire?
#Post#: 28475--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Twik
Date: March 27, 2019, 3:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> Yes, it would have been a great story if there had been this
compassionate customer service rep who magically appeared ready
to guide the youngster to a nearby hotel. My experience is that
at most smaller airports, there are very few customer service
reps and they even indicated that both of the involved airlines
counters were closed. I just think it's wrong to expect a
business to assume a guardian role for a minor when they have
not been contracted to assume that role. This minor traveling as
an adult with her parent's permission did not receive less
service than other adult travelers.
--- End Quote ---
But she wasn't actually an adult, and the airline should have
been aware of that (I'm sure if she'd tried to buy herself
another ticket they would have noticed that VERY quickly).
Airlines get a pass for not providing the service they've
contracted for due to "acts of God." However, if they're going
to allow unaccompanied minors, who legally can't contract for
alternative arrangements, they'll need to be prepared to take
some responsibility. What if, during the wee hours of the night
when no one was around, someone attacked this girl? Would it be
OK to shrug and say, "her parents thought we'd deliver her
safely, but we never actually promised that we'd do that?"
#Post#: 28501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: March 28, 2019, 8:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Twik link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1064.msg28465#msg28465
date=1553710063]
> Yes, it would have been a great story if there had been this
compassionate customer service rep who magically appeared ready
to guide the youngster to a nearby hotel. My experience is that
at most smaller airports, there are very few customer service
reps and they even indicated that both of the involved airlines
counters were closed. I just think it's wrong to expect a
business to assume a guardian role for a minor when they have
not been contracted to assume that role. This minor traveling as
an adult with her parent's permission did not receive less
service than other adult travelers.
--- End Quote ---
But she wasn't actually an adult, and the airline should have
been aware of that (I'm sure if she'd tried to buy herself
another ticket they would have noticed that VERY quickly).
Airlines get a pass for not providing the service they've
contracted for due to "acts of God." However, if they're going
to allow unaccompanied minors, who legally can't contract for
alternative arrangements, they'll need to be prepared to take
some responsibility. What if, during the wee hours of the night
when no one was around, someone attacked this girl? Would it be
OK to shrug and say, "her parents thought we'd deliver her
safely, but we never actually promised that we'd do that?"
[/quote]
Most airline policies state that those over 15 are treated as
adult passengers. They are not offered any additional services
or consideration. In my mind, it was her parents who chose to
treat their daughter as an adult by allowing her to travel
independently and they should not have assumed the airline would
offer more consideration for this 15 year old than they would
any other adult traveler.
-The airline did not contract to offer additional services or
consideration.
-The airline did not say they would "deliver their minor child"
safely.
-They contracted to give her a flight on a plane.
-The parents in actuality held up to them that she was
sufficiently mature to travel on her own.
If something had happened to the girl, I would first look to the
parents who chose to send their 15 year old on a connecting
flight that they new she did not have sufficient paperwork when
the trip originated. And I would look to the security of the
airport. Any traveler knows that their flight can be cancelled,
delayed, or re-routed. Had the same scenario happened to an
actual adult we would all be rolling our eyes with a "horrors of
air travel" not a news story.
I don't accept that the parent's can relinquish all of their
responsibility.
#Post#: 28559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Twik
Date: March 29, 2019, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> [quote author=Twik link=topic=1064.msg28475#msg28475
date=1553719998]
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1064.msg28465#msg28465
date=1553710063]
> Yes, it would have been a great story if there had been this
compassionate customer service rep who magically appeared ready
to guide the youngster to a nearby hotel. My experience is that
at most smaller airports, there are very few customer service
reps and they even indicated that both of the involved airlines
counters were closed. I just think it's wrong to expect a
business to assume a guardian role for a minor when they have
not been contracted to assume that role. This minor traveling as
an adult with her parent's permission did not receive less
service than other adult travelers.
--- End Quote ---
But she wasn't actually an adult, and the airline should have
been aware of that (I'm sure if she'd tried to buy herself
another ticket they would have noticed that VERY quickly).
Airlines get a pass for not providing the service they've
contracted for due to "acts of God." However, if they're going
to allow unaccompanied minors, who legally can't contract for
alternative arrangements, they'll need to be prepared to take
some responsibility. What if, during the wee hours of the night
when no one was around, someone attacked this girl? Would it be
OK to shrug and say, "her parents thought we'd deliver her
safely, but we never actually promised that we'd do that?"
[/quote]
Most airline policies state that those over 15 are treated as
adult passengers. [/quote]
But they're not actually adults, and often can't do things that
an adult would to deal with the situation, such as book their
own hotel rooms.
Personally, as an adult, I'd like to think that if an airline
completely drops the ball as they did in this situation, they
would do more than shrug and tell me to hang around a
nearly-empty airport until they are at some time ready to board
me. In this case, I think that they should have offered her a
hotel room for the night at least, since it was not a weather
delay or "act of God," it was their own system failure.
#Post#: 28569--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: March 29, 2019, 9:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Twik link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1064.msg28501#msg28501
date=1553780018]
> [quote author=Twik link=topic=1064.msg28475#msg28475
date=1553719998]
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=1064.msg28465#msg28465
date=1553710063]
> Yes, it would have been a great story if there had been this
compassionate customer service rep who magically appeared ready
to guide the youngster to a nearby hotel. My experience is that
at most smaller airports, there are very few customer service
reps and they even indicated that both of the involved airlines
counters were closed. I just think it's wrong to expect a
business to assume a guardian role for a minor when they have
not been contracted to assume that role. This minor traveling as
an adult with her parent's permission did not receive less
service than other adult travelers.
--- End Quote ---
But she wasn't actually an adult, and the airline should have
been aware of that (I'm sure if she'd tried to buy herself
another ticket they would have noticed that VERY quickly).
Airlines get a pass for not providing the service they've
contracted for due to "acts of God." However, if they're going
to allow unaccompanied minors, who legally can't contract for
alternative arrangements, they'll need to be prepared to take
some responsibility. What if, during the wee hours of the night
when no one was around, someone attacked this girl? Would it be
OK to shrug and say, "her parents thought we'd deliver her
safely, but we never actually promised that we'd do that?"
[/quote]
Most airline policies state that those over 15 are treated as
adult passengers. [/quote]
But they're not actually adults, and often can't do things that
an adult would to deal with the situation, such as book their
own hotel rooms.
Personally, as an adult, I'd like to think that if an airline
completely drops the ball as they did in this situation, they
would do more than shrug and tell me to hang around a
nearly-empty airport until they are at some time ready to board
me. In this case, I think that they should have offered her a
hotel room for the night at least, since it was not a weather
delay or "act of God," it was their own system failure.
[/quote]
I get that she is not actually an adult. But it was the parents
who chose to treat her as an adult by allowing her to travel
alone. It was not the airline who made that decision. So when
she became stranded overnight, the parents could have also found
a local hotel and arrange transport for her to stay there. She
was already out of security. I just googled and there 2 hotels
at the airport and another 15 within a 15 min drive. My DD was
18 and missed a connecting flight due to weather problem at her
airport of origin. We knew there would be no more flights that
night so I called and arrange a hotel and transport. I didn't
wait for some one else to fix the problem. Had I been this girls
mother, as soon as she called and said "there's no one at the
desk to give me a ticket", I would have been making arrangements
so that she wasn't sleeping on an airport floor.
#Post#: 28623--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: LifeOnPluto
Date: March 29, 2019, 11:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There was a recent case here in Australia where a 9 year old
boy, flying unaccompanied, spent the night in a storage room at
Melbourne Airport after his flight was diverted due to bad
weather. All the hotels were booked out due to the Grand Prix,
and the airline wanted to separate him (and a couple of other
unaccompanied kids) from the other passengers, for the
children's own safety. I think the airline staff looked after
him as best they could, and bought him Maccas!
On topic, it is slightly disturbing that it was only women who
stood up for that girl. Perhaps it was the case that there were
no men within earshot, but if they were - and deliberately
decided to not get involved - that's sad.
#Post#: 28640--------------------------------------------------
Re: Standing up for other passengers undergoing harassment
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: March 30, 2019, 8:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think men don't consider creepiness and unwanted advances to
be all that traumatic. I don't know if it's that most men truly
DON'T experience that stuff as harmful when it happens to them,
or whether men in general don't get a lifelong message that says
"you are prey," or whether it's that it doesn't happen to them
so they have no experience...
I think that's one of the best things about Twitter, Instagram,
Facebook, and things like the #YesAllWomen and #MeToo
conversations, is that more men are starting to say, "Oh, wow,
that really IS damage to you. It's not just something everyone
can brush off."
Many women can, and more power to them! But they shouldn't have
to.
And I bet a lot of them who do seem to brush it is, if you
probed a bit, you'd find that they HAVE had a lasting effect.
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