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#Post#: 10--------------------------------------------------
Is the Christian God truly not Real?
By: Archaeleon Date: October 31, 2009, 7:30 pm
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Please keep this debate ONLY on the christian God.
Atheists claim God does not exist and they say no one can prove
the exisitance of God. Well I say they cannoot disprove the
exsistance of God
#Post#: 24--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the Christian God truly not Real?
By: haxial Date: November 2, 2009, 11:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This brings my mind to a joke, with meaning:
THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE OFFENSIVE..
This takes a while to read, but it's well worth it. May we be
prepared always to give an answer to the reason for our faith...
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The
atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then
asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian,
aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers
for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick
person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you
help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if
you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God
doesn't."
No answer.
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of
cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this
Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" No answer.
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He
takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the
student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with
the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs
his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the
smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot
of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to
the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
No answer.
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?
All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
No answer.
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM?
TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and
climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God
created all evil, didn't He, son?"
No answer.
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and
fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the
classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell
me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He
created all evil throughout all time?"
The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the
wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the
pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the
suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't
it, young man?"
No answer.
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?"
The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,
"Is God good?"
No answer..
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I
do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five
senses you use to identify and observe the world around you.
Have you ever seen your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your
Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God
whatsoever?"
No answer.
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the
underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable,
demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What
do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
The student doesn't answer.
"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits...Defeated. Another Christian raises his
hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the
vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the
gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points
you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there
such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.
The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or
no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458
degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any
further after that.
"There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to
go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to
describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we
can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not
the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence.
A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't
darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the
absence of something. You can have low light, normal light,
bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly
you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the
meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.
If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give
me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness,
professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery
before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind
telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is
flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in
error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable
effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He
waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to
continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian
explains. "That for example there is life and then here's death;
a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as
something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot
even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but
has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death
as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite
of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a
neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most
disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such
a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of
morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the
absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The
Christian pauses.
"Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so
angry he is temporarily speechless. The Christian continues. "If
there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there
is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through
the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The
Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own
free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't
vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a
realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any
other theological factor as being part of the world equation
because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in
this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena
going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of
dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you
teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young
man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his
student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of
evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an
on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are
you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical
discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face spits into a grin. "Sir, you
rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena.
Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the
commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making
earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what
I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around
the room.
"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's
brain?"
The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards
his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever
heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have
done so.
The Christian shakes his head sadly.
"It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the
professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of
empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says the
professor has no brain."
The class is in chaos. The Christian sits...
#Post#: 26--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the Christian God truly not Real?
By: Archaeleon Date: November 2, 2009, 11:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=haxial link=topic=10.msg24#msg24 date=1257224895]
This brings my mind to a joke, with meaning:
THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE OFFENSIVE..
This takes a while to read, but it's well worth it. May we be
prepared always to give an answer to the reason for our faith...
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The
atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then
asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian,
aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers
for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick
person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you
help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if
you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God
doesn't."
No answer.
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of
cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this
Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" No answer.
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He
takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the
student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with
the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs
his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the
smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot
of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to
the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
No answer.
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?
All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
No answer.
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM?
TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and
climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God
created all evil, didn't He, son?"
No answer.
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and
fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the
classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell
me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He
created all evil throughout all time?"
The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the
wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the
pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the
suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't
it, young man?"
No answer.
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?"
The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,
"Is God good?"
No answer..
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I
do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five
senses you use to identify and observe the world around you.
Have you ever seen your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your
Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God
whatsoever?"
No answer.
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the
underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable,
demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What
do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
The student doesn't answer.
"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits...Defeated. Another Christian raises his
hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the
vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the
gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points
you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there
such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.
The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or
no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458
degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any
further after that.
"There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to
go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to
describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we
can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not
the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence.
A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't
darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the
absence of something. You can have low light, normal light,
bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly
you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the
meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.
If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give
me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness,
professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery
before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind
telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is
flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in
error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable
effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He
waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to
continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian
explains. "That for example there is life and then here's death;
a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as
something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot
even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but
has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death
as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite
of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a
neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most
disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such
a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of
morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the
absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The
Christian pauses.
"Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so
angry he is temporarily speechless. The Christian continues. "If
there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there
is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through
the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The
Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own
free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't
vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a
realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any
other theological factor as being part of the world equation
because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in
this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena
going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of
dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you
teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young
man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his
student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of
evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an
on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are
you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical
discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face spits into a grin. "Sir, you
rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena.
Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the
commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making
earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what
I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around
the room.
"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's
brain?"
The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards
his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever
heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have
done so.
The Christian shakes his head sadly.
"It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the
professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of
empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says the
professor has no brain."
The class is in chaos. The Christian sits...
[/quote]
Well remeber, we all had sinned, so therefore, if someone is
born handicapped, then that is not God's fault, but Adam's and
Eve's fault. Because of them, we are punished as well. We are
given free will. All the bad things that happen by people, they
are choosing to go against God. Therefore you cant say God is
bad since he caused good things to happen too. God created
Satan to test us to see who we will follow... God or Satan.
You can't use science to prove a belief. A belief is a belief.
You can't use your five sences to prove Jesus exisited. You
have to believe he existed, hence "the christian belief."
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