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#Post#: 2423--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Elias Nordling Date: May 14, 2019, 1:42 pm
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I have this one set up, and have some issues:
1) If the Bf109 initiates strafing profile, how war can it go?
Either, it is considered a fighter-bomber at the moment it
initiates a bombing profile, and since it is within 4 columns of
a target, it can move 3 MP, +1 for diving for 4 MP, and it can
strafe the target on turn 1.
OR, the fact that it doesn't carry bombs means it is not a
fighter-bomber, but just an unalerted sweep, which means it can
go 2 MP, +1 for diving under profile, for 3 MP. It will not
strafe the target on turn 1.
Obviously whichever is right has a major effect on the scenario,
especially in this case where the Bf109 is tallied on turn 1.
I would lean towards the second answer as the correct one per
the rules, but I don't think it makes much sense that fighters
move faster if you hang bombs under their wings, so I definitely
don't like that answer.
2) I think special rule 2 adds more confusion than illumination.
It doesn't say anything that isn't in the standard rules since
the Ju88 is a flight, and medium bomber flights are always
allowed to glide bomb. The Ju88 is also allowed to steep angle
bomb because of its speed brakes, but that is not mentioned by
the rule, casting doubt if it is indeed allowed in this
scenario. The choice is not given as one lets you bomb turn 1
with a worse modifier, the other turn 2 with a better mod.
I don't mind that the rule makes a friendly reminder, but would
suggest "Reminder, since the Ju88 is both a flight and has speed
brakes, it can use glide bombing and steep angle profiles."
#Post#: 2430--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Gordon Christie Date: May 16, 2019, 8:51 am
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..and to complete today’s AAR marathon here’s the first run at
Flying Fish.
Overall neat little scenario. We started out intending just to
set it up for the next session but rattled through it in about
20 minutes & were having sufficient fun that we decided not to
stop until we learned the outcome.
Interesting setup. As the Dutch I went for the bombers but I did
wonder about trying to hit the fighters from above. The Ju88s
will bomb on GT1 & they are difficult opponents for the Dutch
fighters, as (I think) should be the case historically. The
schnellbomber was pretty advanced for its time at this stage in
the war.
2 G-1s were hit taking off (the rules for this are a neat touch
:-)). The veteran D XXI flight with an experte played a blinder
with cohesion rolls relentlessly above 9, seeing off the 109s &
accounting for no fewer than 5 He 111s, pretty much winning the
game on its own.
LW 5 kills (4 G-1s- 6 VP) +1- 7 VP
4hits on J0 airfield-+4
Dutch
5 bomber 4 fighter kills- +14
Final score -3 for solid Dutch win
Felt like Dutch win. Dice for both sides were towards the
extremes of the probability distribution & I don’t think
particularly favoured either side.
Only suggestion would be that he german fighters are strafing
rather than sweeping-they can go down & strafe as sweepers
anyway but it might encourage the less experienced german player
to default to it?
On the basis of one test this looks good. We’ll give it another
couple of goes to see if we can break anything & get an idea of
VP balance.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2431--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Elias Nordling Date: May 16, 2019, 9:00 am
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[quote]Only suggestion would be that he german fighters are
strafing rather than sweeping-they can go down & strafe as
sweepers anyway but it might encourage the less experienced
german player to default to it?[/quote]
If they strafe, they have a bomb load. If they don't have a bomb
load, they are fighters and can't fly a FB mission per the
rules. Then again, see my question right above your post.
BR, Elias
#Post#: 2434--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: May 16, 2019, 10:27 am
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I think I want to keep these sweeps for now.
Elias brings up an interesting issue in that we have very
different behaviours for sweeps strafing and strafing squadrons.
We are going to have to live with this with the current rules.
#Post#: 2439--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Gordon Christie Date: May 16, 2019, 11:35 am
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I thought that 110 C-2s & 109 E-1s both lacked bomb ratings. In
this case it probably doesn't make much difference as they are
only going to use their guns but it (perhaps) fits the setup &
my impression of the narrative that the low fighters are
probably strafers. If David has better information I'd
definitely defer to someone with access to the Dutch sources who
could give a definitive view.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2441--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Elias Nordling Date: May 17, 2019, 1:50 am
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The thing is, the rules say that as soon as fighter bombers drop
their bombs, they become fighters and revert to sweep, so there
is no way for them so stay in strafing mission :-)
May I suggest the leftmost airfield is moved one square right,
so that the BF109 is unable to strafe on turn 1 regardless how
you interpret the rules, saving the prospective player a rules
lawyer conflict?
#Post#: 2442--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: May 17, 2019, 3:03 am
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I want to be careful about moving the airfields too close
together. What if we started the lefthand sweeps one square
further away?
#Post#: 2443--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Elias Nordling Date: May 17, 2019, 4:22 am
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That was my first thougt, but then they become harder to tally,
and if you also move the interceptors, you are taking them
farther away from the bombers.
#Post#: 2444--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Elias Nordling Date: May 17, 2019, 2:02 pm
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v0.5
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
I put both veterans in the D.XXI for the dutch, and in the He
111 for the Germans. The Ju88 bombed turn 1, destroying 2 G.I:s
taking off. The D.XXI went for the German fighters, largely
preventing them from strafing the airfield but otherwise getting
as good as they gave. The He111s busted their bombing roll. The
game then ended in a slightly odd pursuit battle where the G.I:s
mostly self-immolated themselves against the bombers. Sure, one
bomber of each went down, but with two straggler G.I:s left.
Score:
Germans 4 VP bombing, 6 G.I, 3 D.XXI: 16
Dutch: 1 Ju88, 1 He111, 1 Bf109, 2 Bf110: 8
Final score: 8
Draw
Felt like a German win, but from a moral standpoint I can see it
as a draw.
Comments: The Dutch have a hard time getting positive combat
mods even with veteran diving from above, against either the
bombers or the fighters. I felt that the G.I s were so crappy
that they would probably have been better off running away than
trying to engage anything. The Dutch scored better than if they
had just rolled for escape, so that seemed fair. I see no reason
to change anything right now, I guess you just need scoring
data.
#Post#: 2446--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: Elias Nordling Date: May 18, 2019, 5:11 am
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I just realize I misplayed the bombing rules, killing 1 Dutch
fighter per bombing hit instead of per 4 hits. With that, the
score would have tipped 3 points towards the Dutch, still a draw
but more obviously so.
I would suggest changing the rule to 1 AC lost per 2 hits, as it
would put a greater incentive for the germans to bomb the
airfield with the He111 even if the Ju88 hits. Also because I'm
into my second game and in 4 bombing attempts, I've got 2 hits
twice, so it seems like the Germans would have a hard time
getting any meaningful use out of the special rule.
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