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#Post#: 1761--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: chief2000 Date: February 16, 2019, 3:09 pm
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Thanks. I thought I had the most recent editions but I haven't
been checking as often as I should.
#Post#: 1771--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 17, 2019, 1:57 am
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It's not a problem if we can catch it and calculate back. In
many ways this validates the changes to the bomb value
calculation, because a problem with the old numbers is that it
made medium bombers somewhat nuclear when attacking from low
altitude. This is exactly the kind of scenario that second
edition change fixes.
#Post#: 1794--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: chief2000 Date: February 17, 2019, 2:04 pm
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I know, but I hate making dumb mistakes like that! Anyway, I
played it again under the current scenario version (0.1) and
added the threshold of G.I loss per bombing point.
Scenario: O10 Flying Fish
Version: v0.2
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my third playtest of this scenario. I chose to
keep the scenario parameters for the current scenario with the
exception of the change in damaging the G.Is caught on the
ground during bombing.
Set up: Height error roll on DXXI E sends its vector to two
altitude levels higher
Turn One
No tallies
G.I A takes off
Ju-88 begins glide bombing profile
Turn two
DXXI D and E tally He-111
G.I A fails tally of He-111
Me109E fails tally of DXXI D
G.I B is taking off
Ju-88 begins bomb run on airfield in J0
DXXI D is able to move into He-111 square but E cannot make it
109E enters first light flak barrage square. No effect. Enters
second barrage square. Also no effect.
Me-110C enters first light flak square. No effect
Ju-88 bombing run nets 50% success (8 hits) and two losses on
G.I B taking off this turn. Gains max points for airfield. (10
victory points) and 3 points for two losses on the GI B.
Air combat DXXI D vs. He-111. DXXI D has no effect on He-111
while He-111 scores a loss against the DXXI.
Cohesion disrupts DXXI D but the He-111 is fine
Turn Three
Me-109E tallies DXXI D
Me110C fails tally against DXXI D
G.I A tallies He-111
G.I B fails tally against He-111 and must circle at its vector
point
Both DXXI maintain tally on He-111
Me-109E climbs out of light flak barrage zone to engage the DXXI
D
Heavy flak targets He-111– no effect
Light flak barrage targets Me110C in two squares with no effect
He-111 bomb run 25% (5 hits= 5 victory points)
Air combat Me109E vs DXXI E scores one loss on DXXI E and one
loss on Me109E
Cohesion
Me-109E disrupted
DXXI D and E cohesion is good
G.I A disrupted
Scenario special rule three requires dogfight if Dutch so choose
and they do
Turn Four
Me-110C fails tally on G.I B
G.I B fails tally on Me110C and circles at its vector. Revector
roll fails
Heavy flak barrage against Me-110C as it passes through first
square generates cohesion roll. Cohesion good. Me-110C passes
through second square with no effect
Air combat: Me-109E vs both DXXI and G.I A nets two losses on
the Me109E. Cohesion roll breaks the Me109E and DXXI D
Turn Five
G.I B fails tally on Me110C
Me110C tallies G.I B
DXXI E, G.I A drop tally on broken Me109E and tally He-111
Heavy flak direct fire against Me110 no effect
Air combat Me110C vs. G.I B nets straggler on the G.I B
Cohesion disrupts G.I B but Me110C is fine
DXXI E and G.I A vs. He111. No score either side.
Cohesion disrupts DXXI and breaks G.I A but He111 is fine
Turn six
Air combat Me110C vs. G.IB nets two losses and a straggler on
G.IB (max losses – two on take-off and two here) plus one
straggler. One straggler on Me110C
Cohesion on Me110C is good. G.I B removed for max losses
Victory
Germans: one airfield 10 points plus half vp. for half damage on
second airfield (5 points) plus four G.Is (6 points) and two
DXXI (2 points)= 23 points
Netherlands: three Me-109E (3 points)
German victory (23-3=20 points)
Summary of playtests so far (adjusted for correct ADC
bombing/point value totals)
Playtest #1: 27-7 =20 vp (Bomb scores: Ju88 100%; He111 50%)
German victory
Playtest #2: 11-1=10 vp (Bomb scores: Ju88 25%; He111 0%) Draw
Playtest #3: 23-3=20 vp (Bomb scores: Ju88 50%; He111 25%)
German victory
Recommendation: None. I just wanted to playtest this with the
correct ADCs and the new stipulation that reduced G.I losses by
bombing. Hope I got it right this time.
#Post#: 1804--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 18, 2019, 2:10 am
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Okay, I shall try to take a forensic look at this later and see
what shakes out.
#Post#: 1839--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 22, 2019, 5:46 am
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Let's look at the air combat exchange (leavened by losses to
bombing, which we have recently detuned). In these numbers I
have recalculated the G.I losses to bombing:
Chris 1 - Germans 7; Dutch 7 = 0 VP
Chris 2 - Germans 4.5; Dutch 1 = +3.5 VPs to Germans
Chris 3 - Germans 8, Dutch 3 = +5 VPs to Germans
This gives us a net result of +2.8 VPs to the Germans
Some of the changes to the scenario, such as to the flak, may
have prevented events such as the loss of a G.I flight in
Chris's first play. Clearly, the Dutch should do a little better
under the current version of the scenario, but they are still,
overall, losing the exchange with the Germans.
Next, we need to look at the bombing outputs, where the Germans
have generally been scoring high. I will assume the Ju 88s will
glide bomb and the He 111s level bomb from above the flak.
Ju 88s = mean hits 4.61
He 111s = mean hits 3.78
So I expect, on average, the bomber squadrons to score 5 VP each
on the airfields.
The pN for the He 111s to score 10 VPs on an airfield (i.e. 50%
or better) is: 16.7%
The pN for the He 111s to score 1 or fewer VPs on an airfield
(i.e. 0%/10%) is: 58.3%
The pN for the Ju 88s to score 10 VPs on an airfield (i.e. 50%
or better) is: 27.8%
The pN for the Ju 88s to score 1 or fewer VPs on an airfield
(i.e. 0%/10%) is: 41.7%
This suggests the bombing results are going to be very swingy
and may dominate this scenario. I'm contemplating whether or not
we need to tamp down the bombing VP outputs so as to reduce the
swing.
In the meantime, assuming the bombing average is 10 VPs, we have
an adjusted average VP result 12.8 in favour of the Germans.
This suggests I need to adjust the draw window to something like
+11 to +14, so that a +15 is required for a German win.
#Post#: 2113--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: chief2000 Date: March 14, 2019, 3:19 pm
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Scenario: O10 Flying Fish
Version: v0.4
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my fourth playtest of this scenario.
Set up: Height error roll unsuccessful for G.I A and on DXXI C,
D
Turn One
G.I A fails tally on He111 S
Bf109E A fails tally on DXXI C
No other tally rolls
Ju88 Y begins bomb profile
Heavy flak direct fire vs Ju88 Y. Nets straggler and cohesion
roll disrupts ju88 Y
Direct fire on He111 S no effect
Turn Two
DXXI C and D as well as G.I A tally He111 S
BF109E A fails tally of DXXI C109E A moves into first barrage
square of light flax passes cohesion. Moves into second
barrage square and suffers straggler. Passes cohesion
Bf110 L moves into square one of barrage – no effect
Heavy flak direct fire against Ju88 Y straggler turns to loss
Cohesion: breaks!
Bomb run: no effect
GI A and both DXXI C and D vs. He111 S. He111 S suffers two
losses. No effect on Netherlands aircraft. All pass cohesion.
Turn Three
G.I B height error roll – no effect
Bf109E A tallies G.I A
Bf11o L tallies DXXI D
G.I B tallies He111 S
Note: two combats in same square will take place since on one
tallied DXXIC which is free to attack the He111 S.
Heavy flak direct fire vs. Bf109E A and nets one losses, one
straggler (which becomes loss on previous straggler). No effect
on Bf110 L
Bf109 E A passes cohesion
Heavy flak direct fire vs. He111 S and nets one loss. Disrupts
on cohesion check
Bf109E A vs. DXXI C. no effect on either
Cohesion: Bf109E A broken
Bf 110 L disrupted
DXXI C disrupted
G.I A disrupted
DXXI D vs. He111 S: no effect on either combatant
Cohesion breaks He111 S but DXXI D passes
Dogfight between Bdf110 L and DXXI C
Turn Four
Light flak direct fire against Bf110 L nets straggler.
Passes cohesion
He111 bomb run on De Kooey no effect. (probably should have
concentrated on Bergen with the Ju88 when I saw them disrupt on
turn one. Didn’t anticipate the Heinkels breaking before the
target)
Dogfight Bf110 L vs. DXXI C and G.I A
G.I A suffer one loss; Bf110 L suffers straggler which becomes
loss
Cohesion G.I A broken
DXXI C and Bf110 L pass
G.I B and DXXI D vs. He111 S nets one loss on already broken
He111.
Cohesion: G.I B and DXXI D pass
Turn Five
G.I B and DXXI C drop tally on He111 S
G.I B fails tally of Bf110 L
DXXI C tallies Bf110 L
Light flak direct fire vs Bf110 L no effect
Dogfight Bf110 L vs. DXXI C and D. Both BF110 L and DXXI D
suffer two losses apiece.
Cohesion breaks DXXI D and Bf110 L. DXXI C passes
Victory: Germans 1.5 (one G.I) + 2 (two DXXI)=3.5
Netherlands: 2 (two Bf109E + 4.5 (three Bf110C +
10 (one Ju88 and 4 He111)= 16.5
3.5-16.5= -13. Netherlands victory.
Recommendations. Not one bomb hit the target. This was the
first of my four playtests where the Netherlands achieved a
pretty inexpensive victory, losing only three aircraft while
scoring big against the Ju88 and He111. Flak was also very
effective. I see the scenario as well-balanced although I would
change the Ju88 to a squadron instead of a flight. Perhaps
placing the He111 high enough to avoid barrages may help. Of
course, the trade off would be the possible lack of accuracy.
Or, allow the He111 to glide bomb as well.
#Post#: 2360--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: chief2000 Date: April 29, 2019, 3:28 pm
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Scenario: O10 Flying Fish
Version: v0.4
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my fifth playtest of this scenario.
Set up: Height error roll on DXXI E
Turn One
G.I A tallies HE111
BF109 B tallies DXXI D
Direct fire hvy flak against He111 nets a loss
He111 disrupts
Direct fire hvy flak against Ju88 which has begun its glide
bombing attack
and nets straggler
Cohesion good
DXXI E GCI roll fails to correct vector
Turn Two
DXXI D and E tally Ju88
G.I C tallies He111
Barrage vs Bf110 J by light flak ne
Direct fire hvy flak against He111 ne
Direct fire hvy flak against Ju88 ne
Bomb run Ju88 ne (rolled four)
Air combat
DXXI D and E vs Ju88 nets two losses on Ju88
Cohesion: DXXI D disrupted
G.I A vs. He111 nets one loss on He111
Cohesion: good
Turn Three
GI A drops tally against He111 to tally Bf109 B but fails
Lt flak barrage vs. Bf110 J
First square ne
Second square nets straggler
Cohesion good
Air combat
G.I C vs. He111
Straggler on G.I C. Ne on He111
Cohesion good on G.I C. He111 breaks
BF109 B vs. DXXI D
Bf109 B loses one
Cohesion: Bf109 B disrupted
DXXI D good
DXXI E good
Dogfight between DXXI D/E and Bf109B due to German
overaggressiveness
Turn Four
Bf110 C tallies G.I C
G.I A tallies Bf110C
He111 bomb run ne (rolled six but He111 is broken)
Air combat
Bf 109 B vs. DXXI D and E (dogfight)
Straggler on Bf 109 B
Cohesion: Bf109 B good; DXXI D and E both broken
Bf110 J vs G.I A/C nets two losses on G.I
Cohesion: Bf 110 J disrupted G.I A good; G.I C disrupted
Dogfight between G.I A/C and Bf110 J due to German
overaggressiveness
Turn Five
Bf109 B drops tallies on both DXXI and tallies DXXI C
Air Combat
Dogfight BF 110 J and Bf109 B vs both G.I nets one loss on Bf109
B
Cohesion: Bf109 B broken; G.I A disrupted; G.I C broken
Turn Six
Dogfight continues between Bf110 J and Bf109 B vs G.I A
Nets straggler on G.I A
Cohesion: Bf109 B breaks; Bf 110 J breaks; G.I A breaks
Victory: Germans 3 (two G.I)
Netherlands: 2 (two Bf109E + 8 (two Ju88 and two
He111)= 10
3-10= -7. Netherlands victory.
Recommendations. As in the previous playtest, not one bomb hit
the target despite the fact that I place my veteran aboard the
Ju88. This was the second of my five playtests where the
Netherlands achieved another inexpensive victory, losing only
two aircraft (it was three on my last playtest three aircraft)
and still managing to knock down a respective number of bombers.
As you can see below, there are two German victories, two
Netherlands victories and one draw. Still pretty well balanced.
Detailed summary of all playtests of Flying Fish so far:
Germans: Max points allowed per airfield achieved 10+10+7 (four
G.I.s and one DXXI)=27
Netherlands: 7 (one He-111, one Ju-88, three Me-109E)
27-7=20 (German victory)
Germans: one airfield 5 points plus six G.Is (11 points)= 11
points
Netherlands: one Me-109E (1 point)
Draw (11-1=10 points)
Germans: one airfield 10 points plus half vp. for half damage on
second airfield (5 points) plus four G.Is (6 points) and two
DXXI (2 points)= 23 points
Netherlands: three Me-109E (3 points)
German victory (23-3=20 points)
Victory: Germans 1.5 (one G.I) + 2 (two DXXI)=3.5
Netherlands: 2 (two Bf109E + 4.5 (three Bf110C +
10 (one Ju88 and 4 He111)= 16.5
Victory: Germans: 3 (two G.I)
Netherlands: 2 (two Bf109E + 8 (two Ju88 and two
He111)= 10
3-10= -7. Netherlands victory.
Summary of playtests so far (adjusted for correct ADC totals)
Playtest #1: 27-7 =20 vp (Bomb scores: Ju88 100%; He111 50%)
German victory
Playtest #2: 11-1=10 vp (Bomb scores: Ju88 25%; He111 0%) Draw
Playtest #3: 23-3=20 vp (Bomb scores: Ju88 50%; He111 25%)
German victory
Playtest #4 3.5-16.5= -13 vp (Bomb scores: 0 for Ju88 and
He111) Netherlands victory.
Playtest #5 3-10=-7 (Bomb scores: 0 for Ju88 and He111)
Netherlands victory
#Post#: 2363--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: April 30, 2019, 2:13 am
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I feel as if this scenario needs some more work. I'm going to
spend some time with this later in the week and kick it about a
bit.
#Post#: 2364--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: chief2000 Date: May 1, 2019, 10:13 am
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I was thinking about this one yesterday and looked over the
results from my most recent playtest again. I noticed that I
failed to subtract one from the flights in air combat (they are
flights, not squadrons) but the results would still have yielded
a victory for the Netherlands.
Played another one yesterday hoping the bomb results would be
better and here are the results:
Germans: Ju88 - 10% (1 point)+ He111 25% (5 points) and four G.I
(6 points)= 12 points
Netherlands: four bombers shot down (flak did not claim one)
plus one Bf-109= 9 points
12-9=3 - still a Netherlands victory
Had the He111 bombing netted 10 points the score would have been
17-9=8, still a Dutch victory.
Ultimately, it all seems to hinge one die roll. Either both
bombers must score significantly or the fighters have to if both
don't. The fighters cannot engage before the bombers are mauled
by the DXXI and possibly one of the G.Is.
Two possible solutions: adjust the victory conditions downward
to favor the German player more and/or add another Ju-88 flight
to increase the chances that the bombers will score on both
airfields.
#Post#: 2383--------------------------------------------------
Re: O10 Flying Fish
By: pilotofficerprune Date: May 5, 2019, 12:24 pm
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I think you’re right that a problem is that this scenario relies
on some very swingy bombing rolls. We need to make this less
swingy.
One way to do this might be to ignore the normal VP outputs and
simply award the German a flat VP rate if they score any hits on
each airfield. Say, 4 VP per airfield is enough to force the
Germans to bomb (and may encourage strafing), forcing the result
onto a comparison of air losses.
Currently, the mean air loss VPs are:
Germans 7 + 9 + 8 + 3.5 + 3 + 6 = 6.1
Dutch 7 + 1 + 3 + 6.5 + 10 + 9 = 6.1
Basically, both sides tend to even out.
So, my proposal is this:
(a) Instead of the VP caps to the airfields, I institute this
special rule: ‘The German player does not score VPs based on the
damage level to surface targets. Instead, the German player
scores 4 VPs for each airfield that sustains one or more bombing
hits.’
(b) Alter the draw window to +4 to +8.5. This should encourage
the Dutch to defend and force the onus on the Dutch to score
against the bombers.
(c) Reduce the heavy flak at Bergen to a Hvy Flak D.
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