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#Post#: 981--------------------------------------------------
O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 19, 2019, 4:33 am
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New scenario thread for playtest of Hunters in the Sky. Please
do not create a new thread for this scenario.
#Post#: 1703--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: chief2000 Date: February 13, 2019, 1:48 pm
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Scenario: O11 Hunters from the Sky
Version: v0.1
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my first playtest of this scenario. I am
dividing my AAR of this scenario into two parts, just as the
scenario is.
Set up: Height error roll unsuccessful
Turn one:
No tallies this turn. The Ju-88 target the heavy flak battery
in the airfield square and begins a glide bombing profile.
Knowing that the battery cannot fire while the G.I.s are taking
off makes its job easier and will help the Ju-52s make their
drop without as much interference.
Turn two:
Tally phase: G.I #1 tallies Ju-52 #1. No other tallies
He-111 #1 moves into the first barrage square of the DD. No
casualties and cohesion roll is good. As it moves into the
second barrage square, same results
He-111 #2 moves into first square of barrage zone. No
casualties, cohesion roll good.
109D escort flying directly above He-111s also moves into the
flak zone. No casualties, cohesion roll good. I should have
had the 109D fly higher to avoid the flak zone but the trade-off
of being unable to tally the G.Is was a deciding factor in
positioning it directly above the bombers.
Ju-88 moves into barrage zone of DD. Heavy flak in airfield
still cannot fire as the second G.I is taking off. One
straggler. Cohesion roll good. I should have also added the
Light flak which would have added a modifier but forgot.
Bomb run He-111 #1: unsuccessful
Bomb run: Ju-88 unsuccessful.
Aerial combat G.I. #1 vs Ju-52 #1: Two losses and one straggler
on Ju-52.
Cohesion disrupts Ju52 #1 but G.I is ok
Turn three:
Height error for G.I 2, and 3 unsuccessful. G.I #2 tallies
Ju-52 #2.
Ju-88 attacked by DD flak barrage: N/A
He-111 #1 attacked by flak barrage leaving target area: no
casualties
He-111 #2 attacked by flak barrage over target: one straggler
but cohesion roll is good. Also attacked leaving target area
but no casualties
He-111 #3 attacked by barrage over target: no casualties
109D attacked by barrage, no casualties. Cohesion roll good.
Second barrage also fails.
Light flak direct fire vs Ju-52 #1 and #2. #1 rolls cohesion
and is good. #2 nets a straggler. Cohesion good.
Bomb run He-111#2: no effect
Bomb run He-111#3: no effect
Aerial combat G.I. #1 and Ju-52#1 nets two losses on Ju-52#1.
No losses on G.I #1
Cohesion roll breaks Ju-52#1. Cohesion on G.I is good
G.I #2 attacks Ju-52#2: Two losses on Ju-52#2. Cohesion roll
good on Ju-52 but G.I #2 disrupts
Turn four:
109D tallies G.I #1
109E #1 tallies GI 2 and second 109E will dive to its location
via most direct route
G.I #1 drops tally on Ju-52#1 and tallies Ju-52 #3
G.I #2 drops tally on Ju-52 #2 and tallies Ju-52 #4
G.I #3 also tallies Ju-52 #4
DD and airfield heavy flak target both Ju-52 #1 and 2 which
reach the target area above the airfield.
Flak nets two losses on Ju-52 #1. Cohesion roll ok. Flak nets
a loss on Ju-52 #2.
Paradrop for both Ju-52 #1 and 2: no effect
Aerial combat 109D vs G.I #1: 109D loses one, one straggler.
No losses for G.I.
Cohesion roll disrupts the 109D but breaks G.I#1.
G.I #2 and 3 against Ju52 #4: two losses on Ju-52#4.
Cohesion roll ok but G.I #2 breaks. G.I #3 cohesion roll good
Turn five:
109D drops tally on GI#1 and tallies G.I #3. 109E #1 also
tallies G.I #3. 109E #2 fails tally on G.I #3
Light flak A, Both heavy flak units (airfield, DD) fires on
Ju52#3. No losses. Cohesion good
Second attack on Ju-52 #4 nets one loss on Ju-52 #4, cohesion
roll good
Ju-52 #3 paradrop unsuccessful
Ju-52 #4 paradrop 10% successful 12 bomb points = 1.2 (1 point)
Aerial combat 109E, 109D vs G.I #3. No losses. G.I #3 breaks,
109D disrupts and 109E#1 is ok
Turn six:
Airfield and DD heavy flak combine against Ju-52 #3 and #4
exiting target area. Ju-52 #3 loses one and breaks during
cohesion check. Nets 2 stragglers on #4.
Victory: Germans: 1 (paradrop)
Dutch: 29 (one 109D and 14 Ju-52)
Recommendations: This is a fun scenario – if you’re the Dutch
player. Strangely enough the losses on the German side
corresponded exactly the historical outcome. In game terms it
truly was the blackest day for the Luftwaffe. It is important
for the German player to knock out both flak batteries to
prevent more losses to the Ju-52s as well as reduce or destroy
the DD. The bombing scores all the way around were very poor
and a few more plays will see how they average out. Even more
critical is to provide greater coverage against the power of the
three G.Is. Most of the losses to the transports came from the
G.Is and not the flak batteries.
Since the airfield was not heavily damaged, I will have to
replay this before moving on to the optional extension.
1.
placed its sweep missions much too high (corrected later) but I
would place the 109E in R5 rather than V5. It is too high to
intervene until it is too late.
2.
flights with one flight escorting the Ju52s and the other
performing sweep in V5. This would provide protection which the
current configuration does not.
3.
#Post#: 1711--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 14, 2019, 2:39 am
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Great AAR! And thanks for the recommendations. They look pretty
sound.
I'll be producing a tweaked version at the weekend.
#Post#: 1719--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: chief2000 Date: February 14, 2019, 8:49 am
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Thanks Lee. One thing I forgot - there was no special rule that
the Heavey AA in the airfield space could not fire while
aircraft were taking off. I included that special rule based on
the previous scenario (Flying Fish). I believe that this a
reasonable special rule to insert in this scenario as well.
What do you think?
#Post#: 1721--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 14, 2019, 9:05 am
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Let me take another look. That said, I think we only need to
legislate for airfield barrage flak. Otherwise it's up to
players to manage their own flak.
#Post#: 1754--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 16, 2019, 12:25 pm
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Changes to the next iteration:
(1) Brought the trailing sweep Bf 109 into the action at Q5
(2) Added a rule to give the Dutch immunity to small arms
barrage (to fix a take off problem)
I will not be adding an additional Ju 88 squadron. this simply
isn’t possible due to ID letter conflicts.
Other than the small arms barrage issue I will not be regulating
Dutch flak during take-off.
#Post#: 2027--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: chief2000 Date: March 4, 2019, 3:20 pm
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Scenario: O11 Hunters from the Sky
Version: v0.2
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my second playtest of this scenario. As with
the first, the victory level was such that did not allow play of
the extension (Germans did not inflict heavy damage on the
airfield)
Set up: Height error roll unsuccessful for G.I A
Turn one:
G. I a failed tally of He111 S
G.I L taking off
Light flak direct fire against Ju88 – no effect
Admin phase: redirect vector of G.I B and L to M-2 succeeds. I
don’t know what I was thinking in sending the first G.I against
the Heinkels in the first place!
Turn two:
G.I A tallies He111 S
Bf109D (B) tallies G.I A (G.I is intending to attack head on,
so escort reaction cannot take place)
G.I B taking off
Light flak, Heavy flak direct fire targets Ju88 U netting a
straggler. Disrupts Ju88 during cohesion check
Ju-88 bombing against light flight has no effect
Direct fire from DD3 vs. He111 S no effect
Direct fire from DD3 vs. He111 Q no effect
He111 S bombing has no effect against DD 3
Air Combat Bf109D (B) vs G.I A: no effect on either combatant.
Cohesion roll: both pass cohesion
G.I attempts to break and fails. Dogfight ensues
Turn Three
G.I L tallies Ju52 W and circles waiting for a head on pass
G.I B tallies Ju 52 V
Bf 109 A fails tally of G.I L
Direct fire from DD3 vs He111 Q nets one loss.
Cohesion: He 111 Q passes
Direct fire from DD# vs. He111 T no effect
Airfield direct fire heavy flak and light flak attacks Ju 52 W
and against Ju 52 V no effect on either
He 111 Q bombing has no effect against DD3
He 111 T bombing nets two hits (10%) against DD3 – 3 victory
points
Air Combat
Dogfight Bf 109D (B) vs G.I A: G.I A scores straggler on Bf 109D
(B). No effect on G.I A
Cohesion: G.I A disrupts. Bf 109D (B) passes.
G.I B vs Ju52V head on pass. No effect
Cohesion: Both pass cohesion
G.I L vs. Ju52 W nets one loss on Ju-52 W but none of G.I L
Cohesion: Ju52 W passes; G.I L disrupted
Turn Four
Bf 109E (A) fails tally against G.I A
DD3 direct fire vs Ju52V and W: nets one loss on Ju52V and on
Ju52W
Ju52 V disrupts in cohesion check
Ju52W also disrupts in cohesion check
Airfield flak and light flak direct fire on Ju52Y and Z
No effect on Ju 52Y; one loss on Ju52Z
Cohesion on Z is good
Ju52W air drop fails as does that of Ju52V
Air Combat
G.I A vs Bf 109D (B) no effect on either combatant. Cohesion
check breaks G.I A but Bf109D (B) passes
G.I B vs. Ju52V nets two losses on Ju52V.
Cohesion: Ju52V breaks. G.IB passes
G.I L vs Ju52W. No effect on either combatant
Cohesion: G.I L breaks and Ju52W passes
Airfield flak, light flak direct fire against Ju52Y and Ju52Z
Attack on Ju52Y has no effect. Attack on Ju52Z nets a loss
Cohesion: Z passes
Turn Five
Bf109D (B) fails tally on G.I B
Bf109E (A) tallies G.IB
Bf109E (I) fails tally on G.I B (too high – he will have to
come down some)
All Flak targets Ju52Z and Y above the target.
One loss each netted against both Ju52Z and Ju52Y
Ju52Y and Z also fail in their air drops – no hits
Air Combat
Bf109E (A) vs. G.I B. No effect on either combatant
Cohesion: Bf109E (A) disrupts. G.I B passes
Turn Six
Both DD and Airfield flak direct fire on Ju52 Y and Z. No
effect on either
Dogfight Bf109E (A) vs. G.I B: G.I B nets loss on Bf109E (A)
but is not affected.
Cohesion breaks Bf109E (A). G.I B passes.
Turn Seven
Bf109D (B) fails tally on G.I B
G.I B tallies Ju52Z
Air Combat
G.I B vs. Ju52Z nets three losses and one straggler on Ju52 Z.
Cohesion G.I B passes and Ju52Z is broken
Turn Eight
Air Combat
G.I B vs. Ju52Y nets three losses on Ju52Y but Ju52Y rolls
boxcars and downs a G.I B.
Cohesion: Ju52 Y disrupts and G.I B disrupts
Turn Nine
Air Combat
G.I B vs. Ju52Y nets a straggler and loss on the Ju52Y but the
Ju52Y gunners roll another 12 and down another G.I (guess the
Junkers gunner is pretty ticked!)
Cohesion: G.I B passes
Ju52Y disrupts
Victory:
Germans: 3 vp (3 hits on DD3) + 3 vp (2 GIs)= 6 vp
Netherlands: 1 vp (one Bf-109E) + 2 vp (one He111) + 28 vp (14
Ju52)= 31 vp
6-31= -25 (whopping victory for the Netherlands again)
Recommendations: This is one for the record books for me. I’ve
never played a game where one flight, or squadron for that
matter, (G.I B) managed to rack up so many kills without even
breaking. They scored ten kills (nine Ju52 and one Bf109E) while
losing only two of their own.
The Netherlands cleaned up on this one again. The first part of
the scenario is clearly imbalanced against the Germans as also
shown by my first playthrough. Ultimately, the goal is to
heavily damage the airfield in order to move on to the optional
extension to the scenario. Here are some suggestions to make
that possible:
1.
escort. The starting position of R8 is much too high to respond
to anything going on at altitude 2.
2.
flak but since there was no provision for glide bombing in the
special rules (as there is in Flying Fish) I had to level bomb
which did not even scratch the guns.
3.
only Ju 52s can attack the airfield. Since the heavy flak is
located in that square, can it be attacked separately? Is there
something already in the rules that states that if there is more
than one target in a square that these targets can be attacked
separately barring any special rules to the contrary? If this
is not the case, I would suggest moving the heavy flak one
square to the left.
4.
flak in the airfield before the Ju52s can be affected by it. In
other words, tactically, the Germans should be allowed to take
out the flak units before the transports get close enough to get
hammered by them.
5.
the Ju52s.
6.
to go after the DD3. The He111s by themselves have a difficult
time hitting, much less sinking, the DD# with its -3 modifier.
#Post#: 2029--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 5, 2019, 2:30 am
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Thanks for the great AAR. Now I have your data I'm going to have
to deep-mine it and look for tweaks. I hadn't expected this one
to be so one-sided, so clearly we're going to have to give the
Germans a buff.
A quick response to one of your questions: the Ju 52 attack the
airfield but there's nothing in the rules to prevent other
bombers attacking non-airfield targets in the same square.
Let me do a deep read of your feedback and come back with some
proposals for change. We need to give the Germans a decent
chance of proceeding to Part 2 of the scenario. Your detailed
AAR will be a big help in that.
#Post#: 2030--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 5, 2019, 4:04 am
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So, let's break things down and look at the air combat first.
Chris 1 - Losses: 1 Bf 109D, 14 Ju 52
Chris 2 - Losses: 1 Bf 109E, 14 Ju 52, 2 G.Is
Clearly the losses are disproportionate. The linking issue here
is that the G.Is can molest the bombers unhindered and that
throws the scenario way out of whack. We want a better balance,
and that's not going to happen by keeping the German Bf 109E
sweeps up so high.
Let's look at that sweep for a moment:
Chris 1 - Bf 109E #1 first tallies on Turn 4; #2 does not tally
Chris 2 - Bf 109E #A first tallies on Turn 5; #I does not tally
So a first step is to bring that sweep down lower, to a place
where it can provide some coverage of the bombers. Chris has
proposed we turn all or some of them into escorts, which is a
step we can certainly consider if lowering the sweep doesn't
work.
#Post#: 2031--------------------------------------------------
Re: O11 Hunters in the Sky
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 5, 2019, 5:58 am
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Looking at the He 111 bombing against the DD, we get the
following results:
Chris 1 - No hits
Chris 1 - 2 hits (two squadrons missed and one scored minor
damage)
By my reckoning, without any flak-inficted modifiers, the
Heinkels should be scoring a average of 1.47 hits each on the
DD, or 4.41 hits in total, which is worth 2 VPs, though it's
only just a shade off 5 VPs. The pNs to score hits are as
follows:
2 hits (10%) = 41.7%
5 hits (25%) = 16.7%
10 hits (50%) = 2.8%
A problem we have is that the DD gets to apply its full -2
modifier. However, I believe it may have been either tied up at
the time or had limited seaway. If we were to make the destroyer
dead in the water, then the Heinkels would enjoy a lot more
success. They would score an average of 3.78 hits each, or
11.34, which would be worth 15 VPs. The pNs to score hits would
be:
2 hits (10%) = 72.2%
5 hits (25%) = 41.7%
10 hits (50%) = 16.7%
Proposals:
(1) Remove the 'Dutch flights immune to barrage' special rule,
as this has been supplanted by the new take-off rule 13.7.2.
(2) Rule the DD dead in the water.
I'm not 100% on rule (2). The German has, very nearly, a 50%
chance of scoring 5 VPs. It's very subject to air combat
results, which would not be the case if we go with proposal (2).
I need to sleep on this, but the case for keeping the status quo
is strong.
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