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#Post#: 2425--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: May 16, 2019, 4:20 am
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Karelia Suite AARs
Andrew and I have now had three runs at this, on the first using
the scenario as written and thereafter 2 runs at a slightly
modified scenario (as below). Overall we think that it works,
although with some minor changes to the setup which probably
slightly simplify things.
Run 1: the Finns went for the bombers as much as they could, but
ignored the DB 3s as they are a bit higher, and significantly
tougher than the SB 2s and there enough SBs to occupy any
Finnish fighters that van break through the Soviet fighter
cover.
Finns 6 losses
VVS 11 bombers 7 fighters 3 bombers exit undisrupted (2 DB-3s);
2 broken
VP
Finns +29
VVS 6 +18 (exit)- 24
Final -5 - overwhelming Finnish victory
This felt like a solid Finnish victory. There seemed no reason
for the Finns to do anything other than ignore the DB 3s as
any Finnish fighters that get through the soviet fighters
will preferentially go for the SBs. The setup of the trailing
Soviet force felt a bit odd with the fighters below the bombers.
For our second and third runs we removed the DB 3s and put the
I 153s in V6 (2 squadrons) and W6 which gives them, a bit of
an altitude advantage to catch up when the Finns start going for
the SBs. We also adjusted the setup of the Gladiators and G
50s as the start very close to the covering Soviet fighter Wing,
and are at risk of tallies being allocated against both units by
the wing leader as the start in formation. This really puts the
Finns on the back foot, and potentially enables the Soviets to
eliminate 2 flights of Finnish fighters pretty quickly and at
relatively little cost. We moved the Gladiators to L 5 and the G
50s to J 5 and this seemed to work pretty well on the
subsequent two runs.
Run 2: the Finns were slightly less successful in air to air
combat this time, but we are successful in breaking and
disrupting bombers for a similar outcome, which felt like a
phyrric Finnish victory at the price of heavy fighter losses
(which historically could not have been afforded) so perhaps
somewhere on the borderline between marginal Soviet victory
based on an unfavourable exchange ratio and draw due to
disruption of the bombers. The Finns did have somewhat better
dice, particularly on bomber cohesion rolls.
Finns 8 fighters
VVS 6 fighters 7 bombers
1 bomber broken 2 disrupted
VP
Finns +20 (kills)
VVS +8 kills +6 exit
Nett -6
Draw/ marginal Soviet victory
Run 3 saw a better Finnish performance, although largely due to
steady disintegration of the Soviet fighter force leaving a
couple of Finish Squadrons in a position to massacre the bombers
as they moved towards the left map edge, aided greatly by some
very good Finnish cohesion rolls which kept their fighters in
the game for longer than they had a right to expect.
Finns 6 fighters
VVS 6 fighters 12 bombers; 2 disrupted 1 broken bomber +6 exit
Finns +30 kills
VVS +6 kills +6 exit
Averages
Finns 6-8-6 for 6.66 fighter losses
VVS fighters 7-6-6 fighters 6.66 average
Bombers 11-7-12 10 average
Exit +6 bombers each time (ignoring DB-3s on first run)
Averages across 3 runs-VVS +6 exit +6.5 kills +12.5
Finns
Average 6.5 fighters 10 bombers- +26.5
Margin +14
2 of 3 felt like Finnish victories second run probably not;
possibly average ~8 bombers due to good Finnish dice. It looks
like the Finnish score will exceed the Soviet score so
subtracting VVS from Finns gives:
Run 1 29-14 +15 Finnish victory (convincing); ignoring
DB-3s for these calculations
Run 2 20 -14- +6 Draw/Finnish (very) marginal at best;
Possibly Soviet victory on exchange rate?
Run 3 30 -12 - +18 Finnish victory (convincing)
Finnish victory +12
Draw +7 to +11
VVS +6 or less
I doubt the DB-3s are necessary. Otherwise it is an interesting
scenario with Soviet mass, limited by lack of radios and rigid
doctrine against Finnish quality although the Finns do have some
less than stellar aircraft (neither the Gladiator nor the G-50
exactly shine
). The clouds add interest & provide a bit of a
sanctuary for the Finns allowing some interesting choices about
ducking under the bombers initially & coming back up later to
attack from the rear.
Final suggestions:
Remove the DB 3s
Move the I 153s V6, V6, W6
Gladiators to L5, G-50s to J5
..and finally checking the most recent scenario version I see
the I-153s have moved to where we put them (great minds etc:-))
but the I-16s are moved back (right) & up a bit. I'd be inclined
to leave the I-16s where they are & move the Gladiators & G-50s
as above-it makes the first turn tallying decisions (I think) a
bit more interesting for each side.
#Post#: 2432--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: May 16, 2019, 10:05 am
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Gordon, can you confirm what your changes are relative to the
most recent version of the scenario?
#Post#: 2438--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: May 16, 2019, 11:32 am
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I think I'm getting confused. I-16s in S7, S7,T7; I-153s in V6,
V6, W6.
Delete DB-3s
Gladiators in L5
G-50s in G5
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2457--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: May 19, 2019, 2:35 am
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Roger, I've implemented these changes.
#Post#: 2485--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: Okmed
Date: May 21, 2019, 9:39 pm
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Scenario: O12 Karelia Suite
Version: v0.4
Player: Dave Demko solo
Narrative: Started testing this when the coverage was still
"Poor" and to follow up on modifications that seem to include my
suggestion. Again, the Finns tried to go for the bombers right
away so the Russians, if they got in the fight, would be
defending with rigid doctrine. The Russian wings went for mass
tallies, with one squadron out of three free-flying to stay
positioned for the more left-ward Finnish squadrons. There were
some blown tallies on both sides, but soon the fight was
thoroughly mixed, giving both sides some dilemmas about
positioning and dropping tallies. Good stuff. The Finns downed
two bombers. The Gladiator flight was blown completely out of
the sky. Once the fighting broke out, the lack of radios took
the steam out of the Russians pretty quickly, but most of the
Finns broke a bit earlier than average. As a result, there were
only a couple turns of attacks on the bombers. Otherwise both
bomber formations skated through largely unmolested; all exited
undisrupted with their bomb loads. In a drawn out end game, the
broken/RTB M.S.406s got into the dense cloud and lured in some
overeager I-153s, which broke after one round of in-cloud
combat. These Finns eventually rolled escape with the help of
the weather modifier.
Victory: Finns 4 VP for bomber kills, 4 VP for fighter kills;
Russians 8 VP for fighter kills, 30 VP for bombers exited
net 30 = Russian victory (4 point margin)
This definitely was a Russian win: while the fighters tangled,
the bombers got through with light losses.
Recommendations: I think tightening up the positioning of the
low Russian squadron helps. As the merge happens, both sides
have to make decisions simultaneously (except that the M.S.406
squadron and, to a lesser extent, B-239s can bide their time a
little. The result is a tricky fight with interesting options
for both sides. I like it. Also, yes: I see now that the snow
can affect play. I like the multiple asymmetries here: wings of
fighters versus mostly flights, Experten versus up-gunned I-16,
rigid doctrine versus highly skilled aircrew. And of course the
variety of aircraft.
#Post#: 2488--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: May 22, 2019, 2:21 am
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Where are you on signing off? Do you need more plays?
#Post#: 2506--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: Okmed
Date: May 26, 2019, 9:50 pm
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I'm ready to sign off on Karelia Suite. I can see from the
discussion here that other testers shared my concerns. Removing
the DB-3s as shown in v0.5 makes sense for the reasons already
discussed and because even if the Russian fighter squadrons
dissolve quickly, those are still a lot of bombers for the Finns
to try to shoot down. That's to the Finns advantage if they can
harvest lots of VPs from the bombers. Seems more likely, though,
that the Russians would be able to score a relatively easy 6 or
12 VP for exiting. I'll be interested in trying v0.5, but from
its looks I'd already say it has changed for the better.
#Post#: 2510--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: May 27, 2019, 3:34 am
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Thanks, Dave.
#Post#: 2599--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: Elias Nordling
Date: June 11, 2019, 10:33 am
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v0.5
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
I'm playing a revised version but I don't see the pro-Finnish
bias that you have trying to get rid of. The Finns got smoked in
my game, and I didn't see a lot of luck going into the die
rolls. the Finns don't have much of a qualitative advantage and
a significant numerical disadvantage. The only thing going for
them is doctrine and no radios, but in my game the Soviets
tallied the Finns before the Finns could reach the bombers,
making them the attackers more often than not. They can also use
their numerical superiority to ensure they move last and become
the attacker. With the attacker bonus to both cohesion and rigid
doctrine, the Finns broke at least as fast as the Soviets. The
Soviet I16 with their FP 2 against Finns with often poor
protection were able to kill Finns in droves.
The Finns managed to get 5 attacks against bombers, but only one
of them was agaist bombers unprotected by defending fighters,
and quite often the defending fighters were diving down, giving
the attackers poor odds. In one single combat, the unfortunate
Buffaloes were wiped out in a defending fighter rolling 12.
The soviets might have been slightly lucky in tallies, but I'm
not sure, as they are in wings so they get multiple tally
attempts.
Score:
Finnish: 3 bombers, 3 fighters: 9
Soviet: Exit 18, 10 fighters: 28
Total: -19
Massive Soviet victory. Felt like one.
Comments:
Special rule 2 should be replaced by having them called D.XXI-3
and underlined in the setup instructions.
It is more or less completely safe putting the green marker in
the rear bomber, increasing the quality of the Soviet fighters.
I'll play it again to see if I can improve Finnish performance
or if the Soviets were lucky.
#Post#: 2613--------------------------------------------------
Re: O12 Karelia Suite
DIR By: Elias Nordling
Date: June 14, 2019, 2:47 pm
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v0.5
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
Another playthrough. This time I tried a different approach. The
Finns in front successfully tallied on turn 1. They then dived
into the broken clouds to avoid detection by the Soviet
fighters, and then climbed up and attacked the bombers in
turning fights. It worked, but as soon as they engaged the
bombers the Soviet fighters were able to tally, and then spread
out to engage all the finnish fighters.
Nevertheless the Finns were more successful in engaging the
bombers this time round, with no less than 10 attacks on the
bombers, 4 of which were against bombers alone. Somehow,
probably largely due to the low firepower ratings, they had
trouble translating this to bomber kills, or even cohesion hits.
I think they were a bit on the unlucky side here, though two
combats scored big on bomber kills.
Score:
Finns: 5 SB, 1 I153: 11
Soviets: Exit 18, 1 D.XXI, 1 MS.406, 3 Buffalo: 23
Score: -12
Overwhelming Soviet victory
Comment: I think the scenario works fine as is, it is fun to
play and there is a surprising amount of decisions to make. The
Finns have to maneuver to avoid being caught before they can
reach the bombers, and the Soviets have to husband their forces
to get a cohesion check advantage. The result I got this time
sounded fairly close to the historical. The only problem is of
course that my scores differs by some 20-30 points from previous
players. I shall play it again.
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