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#Post#: 2893--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: chief2000 Date: August 10, 2019, 2:51 pm
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Scenario: O15 A Black Day for German Tourists
Version: 0.5
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my first playtest of this scenario.
Summary:
Height errors: I16 height error
Turn One
No tallies
Turn Two
He51D fails tally on I16J; He51I tallies I15H; He51A tallies
I15G
I16J tallies He46U; I15G tallies He51A; I15H fails tally of
He51I
He51D reacts early to I16J. Very bizarre die rolls here. I16J
rolls 11 (4 loss rolls – all ones!!! A first.)No losses to
either
Cohesion: I16 disrupted
He51I vs. I15H: no losses to either
Cohesion: I15H disrupted
He51A vs. I15G nets one loss on He51A
Cohesion: I15G and He51A both disrupted
I16J and both I15s break from possible dogfight
Turn Three
I15G RTB
I15H tallies Ju52X
I16J tallies He46U
He51D maintains tally on I16J
He51A maintains tally on I15G
He51I maintains tally on I15H
He46U scores one point for bombing and has turned for home
Ju52X scores one point for bombing
He51D and He46U vs. I16J: one loss on He51D
Cohesion: I16J broken; He51D disrupted
I15H vs. He51I and Ju52X
No losses
Cohesion: He51I disrupted
He51A vs. I15G
No losses
Cohesion: He51A breaks.
Dogfight: I15H vs. He51I
Turn Four
He51D drops tally on I16J and tallies I15H
I15G fails tally of He46U
I15H vs. He51I – straggler becomes loss
Cohesion: I15H breaks
Turn Five
He51I drops tally on I15H and tallies I15G
He51D fails tally of I15G
I15G fails tally of He51I
End scenario: He51I cannot catch I15G before it leaves the
board
Victory:
Nationalists: 2 (bombing) + 1= 3
Republicans: 2 (He51 losses) = 2
2-3=-1 Nationalist victory
Recommendations: This could have gone either way. All the
rolls were unusually low. The scenario seems to be balanced. I
didn’t split since the Republican squadrons didn’t fit any of
the categories permissible under 9.3.
Under Special Rule 6, line two – remove the words “squadron or”
since the Nationalist player has only fights – no squadrons.
Now it’s on to “Heavy Mob.”
#Post#: 2894--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: chief2000 Date: August 10, 2019, 6:43 pm
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Forgot to add - I can sign off on this one.
#Post#: 3160--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: ScottKey Date: September 21, 2019, 2:33 pm
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Scenario: O15 Black Day for German Tourists
Version: 0.5
Playtesters: Scott Key, solitaire
September 21, 2019
Report: - BOTH Republican I-15 squadrons had height errors and
were vectored into pretty bad locations
- one experte, veteran squadron escorted each bomber type in
close escort. The remaining escort flew top cover above the
Ju-52 sqn.
Turns1-3: - no Tallies in the first two turns. This meant both
I-15 sqns were climbing up away from the bombers and away from
the rail station.
- the I-16s were vectored down to altitude 3 above the station.
- In turn 3 the lower I-15 sqn tallied the top escort. The He-51
top cover flight tallied it as well. The German flight turned
and flew up and back presenting the Republican Squadron a
quandary as pursuit would take it even further from the bombers.
The Republican sqn free moves so as to try and switch it’s
tally to a bomber next turn.
- Bombing occurs
Turns 4-7: -The I-16s tally the He-46 bombers and dive on them
but are successfully reacted to by their escorts.
- A dogfight occurs between the experte, veteran German flight
and the I-16s. However almost only one loss (to the He-51s) is
inflicted and at the end of turn 6 the Germans break and the
Republicans disrupt.
- The I-16s pursue the fleeing He-51s into the broken cloud
layer. Here the weather reduces the rolls and guarantees a break
for the I-16s. Before that they inflict another loss and a
straggler on the German flight, eliminating it.
- In turn 5 both I-15 sqns tally the Ju-52s. One sqn is reacted
to and stopped by the veteran, experte flight but the other
attacks the bombers.
- Unfortunately for the Republicans the Ju-52s are the only ones
shooting straight, so the I-15s take a loss and both squadrons
exit.
- The escort breaks the last I-15 sqn in the first round of
combat then loses cohesion itself after the second. Both units
escape.
- The top cover He-51 flight never succeeded in getting into
combat.
Victory: Nationalists
Republicans: +2 vp fighters downed; +1 enemy flight eliminated=
+ 3 vp
CondorLegion: - 3 vp fighters downed, -2 vp bombing = -5 vp
Total: -2 vp
Recommendations: - A scenario like this really shows the
dangers of having no radios, but that’s half the fun of Origins
isn’t it? Without those two height errors things would have been
completely different. For that matter if the attacks on the
Ju-52s had rolled anything decent (rolls were 3 & 5) loss
inflicted vps would have swung this probably into the draw
territory.
- Signing off on this.
#Post#: 3215--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: Elias Nordling Date: September 26, 2019, 12:36 pm
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v0.5
Player: Elias nordling (Solo)
So, I was hoping for a quick sign-off on this scenario, but
instead I kind of cracked it.
Consider the following: The Republicans need a 7 point
differential to win. Assuming they don't get a lucky break, the
bombers will add 2 points to this for bombing. So effectively a
9 point differential is needed.
The only real way to achieve this is to kill Ju52s. Assuming the
bombers escape unhurt, wiping out entirely two of the escorting
flights will only generate 8 points. So the Republicans would
then have to kill most of the escorts and don't take significant
losses themselves to win. This is very hard to achieve even
though they have the aircraft for the job, due to cohesion hits
and no radios.
OK, so knowing this, it isn't too difficult for the Nationalists
to keep the Republicans from the Ju52s. They can't prevent a
head-on, but being escorts and having the same number of
maneuver units, they can prevent almost everything else.
Further, if the Nationalists engage all the Republican fighters,
there are no available fighters to prevent the bombers from
voluntarily break and escape as soon as they have dropped their
bombs. So the Republicans have a very small window to cause a
significant number of Ju52 losses if they want to have a chance
to win.
In my game, basically the Republicans failed to get through to
the Ju52s, and though they had a significant combat advantage
they were unable to get the massive exchange ratio they needed
to gain victory.
Final score:
Republicans: 4 He51: 4
Nationalists: 1 I15, 2 points bombing: 3
Total: 1
Nationalist victory
Comment: I don't really mind the gameflow, the fighters
sacrificing themselves to save the bombers makes for a good
narrative and requires some player skill, but once you know
this, the score makes it very hard for the Republicans to win.
You can simply lower the score, but then it might be too easy
for those who don't realize this. Perhaps a play advice is in
order here?
#Post#: 3216--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: Elias Nordling Date: September 27, 2019, 2:17 am
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Also, I would recommend a "no escape by die roll" rule for the
bombers. That way, the Republicans have a fair chance of
outlasting the Nationalist fighters and get a few shots in on
the bombers.
#Post#: 3223--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: September 27, 2019, 7:16 am
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[s]So, the big deal with this scenario is that the order of
battle has been wrong ever since we changed from He 51 flights
to He 51 squadrons. I put a typo into the set-up. Instead of 3 x
He 51 squadrons there should only be 2 x He 51 squadrons. So
this clearly has screwed with the balance. We need to completely
re-test with this change in mind.
I'm going to change the orbat this weekend, and then I'll ask
for you guys to pile on this one and retest.[/s]
LBW Update: Ignore what I wrote above. I was wrong and confusing
scenarios O15 and O16.
#Post#: 3224--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: Elias Nordling Date: September 27, 2019, 7:23 am
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Oh yes, I accidentally tested with 3 flights. 2 squadrons solves
about all my concerns from the latest playthrough :-)
#Post#: 3233--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: ScottKey Date: September 27, 2019, 6:22 pm
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I played this with 3x He-51 flights because that is what is
shown in the scenario set up (0.5)
(And unfortunately I cant retest this weekend because we are
doing some remodeling and the table is taken)....
#Post#: 3237--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: September 28, 2019, 3:29 am
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AAAAAAAARGH!
Sorry, ignore everything I wrote in my last post. (I shall cross
it out.) I was confusing the 3 x He 51 flight in O15 for the 3 x
He 51 squadron in O16. It's the latter that should have been
reduced to 2 x squadron. My apologies. I've been in a high
dudgeon aover this in the last few days and got mixed up.
The orbat in O15 is correct and should not be changed.
I shall re-address Elias's last test feedback.
#Post#: 3238--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: September 28, 2019, 3:44 am
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Okay, so after that faux pas I'm considering three changes:
(1) Add the 'no escape roll' rules, as proposed.
(2) Increase the jeopardy of losing fighter flights by
increasing the VPs for wiping out a flight from 1 to 2. (We
could increase this more, if needed.)
(3) Reduce the draw window by 1 (or even 2) so that the
Republican victory threshold is +6 or even as low as +5.
Any thoughts?
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