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#Post#: 2534--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: guest31 Date: May 30, 2019, 6:59 pm
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IL-2 1946 w/the BAT mod.
I can't fly well but can use it to create great screenshots.
#Post#: 2543--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 2, 2019, 7:00 am
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What version of the scenario were you playing, Art? Was it v0.4?
#Post#: 2548--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: guest31 Date: June 2, 2019, 2:13 pm
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27May19 pdf version of the Origins Scenario book
Reviewed the Victory Conditions again so I may have confused
calculation in my earlier post leading to my remark about the
wording what to subtract from what.
But if you subtract the Republican/Russian from
Nationalist/German then if all bombers are successful (4 VPs)
the Republicans only need to shoot down 2 Ju52's to counteract
that (2 x 2 =4VPs). All the rest of the planes are 1 VP on both
sides and I don't see how the Nationalists/Germans can shoot
down more than the Republicans. That's why I accidentally
assumed the calculations were reversed.
Hopefully, I am still not confusing things.
But it was a fun scenario - really brought out the qualitative
difference between the fighters as intended.
#Post#: 2555--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 4, 2019, 3:08 am
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I think it's a fair point in that sometimes we build scenarios
expecting that the raider scores more than the defender, but it
doesn't turn out that way, and we have to reverse the score
calculation.
I don't think we're there yet with this scenario. However, I am
keen to avoid a situation where the victory levels in the
scenario contain negative values. that's a big no-no in my book.
#Post#: 2714--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: Elias Nordling Date: July 1, 2019, 3:18 pm
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v0.4
Played the scenario twice, both with the same score: -7
The first game, the bombing was successful, but that didn't
amount to much against persistent Republican fighters. The Ju
52:s were wiped out entirely.
The second game, the fighters broke earlier except for one I15
squadron that farmed all but one of the Ju52s.
Play 1:
T1: No tallies.
T2: Germans fail to tally. Republicans attack Ju52 and top
escort. 1 He51, 1 Ju52 lost.
T3: Germans manage to become attacker by ganging up on I15. I16
continues to thrash He51 that breaks, other I15 shoots down
another Ju52, then breaks. He46 escapes.
T4: I16 tallies Ju52s. 1 Ju52 shot down. 2 I15 lost in fighter
duel. I15 and 1 He51 flight breaks.
T5: Both sides pursue targets. 1 Ju52, 1 I15 killed, Nats break
off.
T6: Last Ju52 lost.
Score:
Nationalists: 2 pts bombing, 4 I15: 6
Republicans: 5 Ju52, 2 He51, 1 Squadron destroyed: 13
Score -7 Republican win
Felt like Republican win.
Play 2 in brief:
Play 2:
All Republicans tally turn 2 while all Nationalists fail tally.
Despite +-4 combat, 1 I16 shot down for no He51 loss. I16
disrupt, He51 breaks. 1 Ju52 lost and broken before bombing. I15
passes multiple cohesion checks and farm Ju52s.
Score:
German: Bombing 1 point, 2 fighters: 3
Republican: 4 ju52, 2 He51: 10
Score -7 Republican win
Felt like Republican win.
Comments: The score, with the current token points for bombing,
makes it almost impossible for the nationalists to win. They
would need to gain a positive loss advantage, but the only way
to achieve that would be to become the attacker in combat and
getting the advantage of rigid doctrine. That's awfully hard to
achieve when there are bombers to protect and the Republicans
have altitude advantage. And then there are the Ju52:s to farm
vp:s from.
Suggestions: I don't really mind the game flow, which seems
historical, but I feel at least the Germans should get a win by
bombing and then getting out unharmed. I suggest making the
Ju52s worth 1 each to make them less of a VP farm target. Then
flip the score and make a score of 2 or more a Republican win,
which means they basically need to kill 4 more aircraft than the
opponent to win.
If we want the fight to feel slightly less uneven, we could add
a Green Republican.
#Post#: 2722--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: chief2000 Date: July 3, 2019, 4:30 pm
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Don't know many Green Republicans. They are usually Democrats
over here:)
#Post#: 2724--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: July 4, 2019, 1:57 am
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I'll try crunching the victory numbers and see if we can fix
this on the victory conditions.
#Post#: 2725--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: July 4, 2019, 11:15 am
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So, just crunching the numbers over 5 tests. An intersting thing
is to see how in the last three tests the Ju 52 losses have
massively increased.
Nationalists
Bombing: 2 + 1 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 2.6 mean VPs
Vs. Republican Fighters: 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 2.8 mean VPs
Republicans
Vs. Nationalist Bombers: 10 + 8 + 7 + 0 + 2 = 5.4 mean VPs (8.3
VPs for the last 3 tests)
Vs. Nationalist Fighters: 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 5 = 2.6 mean VPs
If we reverse the victory calculation so that the Nationalists
subtract from the Republicans, you end up in a place where a
draw window is somewhere around +4 to +6. That would give both
of Elias's recent playins a republican wuin. The question would
be what was necessary to generate a Nationalist win.
#Post#: 2728--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: Elias Nordling Date: July 5, 2019, 12:06 am
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I don't know when that changed, but bombing is now 1 vp per
unbroken bomber, so obviously can't go over 2. I noted that the
earlier nationalist wins tended to have higher bombing scores.
#Post#: 2739--------------------------------------------------
Re: O15 A Black Day For German Tourists
By: pilotofficerprune Date: July 6, 2019, 4:15 am
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Okay, I have now implemented the victory level changes. I
haven't yet changed the VPs for the Ju 52s, however. I'm
concerned that dropping them to 1 VP per loss might lead to some
very odd results.
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