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#Post#: 2205--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 23, 2019, 5:23 pm
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It's not idiocy at all. It's good to see where the weak points
in the rules text are--whether they are doing a good enough job
of describing a rule.
#Post#: 2249--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: chief2000 Date: April 3, 2019, 2:03 pm
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Scenario: O16 Target Madrid
Version: v0.4
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my second playtest of this scenario.
Turn One
No tallies
Heavy flak direct fire targets Ro37 and CR32 A. Nets one loss
for each.
Cohesion: Ro37 disrupts after which it must return to base
(right edge chosen) without the bomb run
CR32 A passes cohesion
Turn Two
CR32A and B fail tally on I15 Wing leader (D)
Direct fire flak targets Ju52 W and Y. No effect on W and one
loss on Ju52 Y
Ju52 Y passes cohesion roll
Ju52W bombing has no effect (4)
Turn Three
I16 Wing Leader (A) tally of He51 D fails due to broken clouds
I15D tallies Ju52W. Wing leader orders I15E to attack Ju52 Y
while D and F will hit Ju52W
CR32 B tallies I15 D. CR32A fails tally on I15E
He51 D escort fails reaction roll. No reaction (3-2 for broken
clouds)
Flak direct fire against Ju52Y and Ju52 X. No effect on either.
Ju52 Y bombing nets 10%. Ju52Z bombing has no effect
CR32 and He51 vs I15D and F. No effect on any participant
Cohesion disrupts He51D; CR32 passes
I15D and I15F both disrupt
I15E vs Ju52Y nets a straggler on Y. No effect against I15E
Cohesion: both pass
Turn Four
I15E maintains tally on Ju52Y
I16A fails tally on CR32G
He51E and F tally I15E
CR32G fails tally on I15D
CR32J tallies I15E
CR32B maintains tally on I15D
He51D tallies I15F
Flak direct fire vs Ju52Z and SM81U. No effect on either
Bomb run
Ju52Z no effect
SM81 U 25%
He51E and F and CR32J vs. I15E nets two losses on He51
Cohesion: He51E broken
He51F disrupted
I15E broken
CR32B and He51D vs I15D and F
Two losses on I15. No effect on CR32
Cohesion: I15D breaks; I15F passes
CR32B disrupts
He51D breaks
Turn Five
CR32J drops tally on I15E to tally I15F
He51 fails tally on I15F
CR32G tallies I15F
CR32B, G, and J vs. I15F nets three losses on I15F and no effect
on CR32
Cohesion: CR32B, G, and J pass. I15F breaks
Victory: Nationalists: 11 vp (five 115) + 6 vp (4 hits on
target)
Republicans: 7 vp (one Ju52, one Ro37) + 3 (one
CR32 and two He51)
11-7=4 Republican victory (barely)
Recommendations: Moving the bombers down one level certainly
helped the Nationalists but not enough to net them a victory.
Even with the Republicans’ heavier losses and more respectable
bombardment score (4 out of possible 6 hits), the Nationalists
still lost. More importantly, the I16s never entered the fray
since their vector was too high and their tally rolls too low.
Had they entered the score would have been even more lopsided in
the Republicans favor.
1.
a reasonable change that could better balance this scenario. In
this case, killing the target would have given the Nationalists
17-7=10 – a Nationalist victory.
2.
said, even if the Nationalists had killed the target, the timely
intervention of the I16s (which occurred on my first playtest)
likely would have pulled a Nationalist victory into a draw –
possibly into a Republican victory if more bombers had been shot
down than were this time.
#Post#: 2273--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: Okmed Date: April 6, 2019, 11:22 pm
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Scenario: O16 Target: Madrid
Version: v0.4
Player: Dave Demko
Narrative: From the outset, the Republicans didn't bother
sending fighters after bombers, letting the flak protect the
targets. The Nationalists tried to wild-weasel the flak with the
Ro.37s but achieved only one hit. Flak suppression with a lucky
bombing result would have been an advantage, but oh well. The
other bombers all rolled 0% hits, but I was expecting victory to
be decided in the air. Both sides tried tricky maneuvering,
juking and dodging to try to get into combat as the attacker
since both sides defend with rigid doctrine. The Nationalists
paired up CR.32s as shooters with He 51B-1s as helpers, with the
Experten and best aircrew in the CR.32s. But they weren't always
able to pair up Edge versus non-edge I-16s. After much bobbing
and weaving, with the Nationalists being a bit more clever, the
outcome felt inconclusive, with the Nationalists having done a
bit better in the air but whiffing almost all their bomb runs.
Victory: Nationalists 11 VPs for kills, 1 VP for bombing;
Republicans 8 VPs for kills
net 4 = narrowest of Republican victories
Recommendations: Um, sorry, but none. This scenario is lots of
fun and felt balanced. If the Nationalists had bombed a little
better, the result would have been an (appropriate) Draw. I
already see ways to improve my tactics and different ploys to
try. For example, running the interceptors into the bombers
could help the Republicans grab and hold the attacking role.
That could make a big difference. I like the asymmetry of pilot
quality versus hardware and numbers. If the Republicans can use
the I-16s effectively, they can inflict major damage. I will try
this one again for thoroughness, and Chris might be right about
the balance of forces. So far, though, I think this is a nifty
scenario as is.
#Post#: 2279--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: pilotofficerprune Date: April 7, 2019, 2:56 am
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Hmmm. We’ve had three Republican victories on this, though in
the last two tests it’s been by narrow margins. It would be good
to see some Nationalist victories.
Chris’s recommendation to place Vets in the bombers is a player
choice and I don’t think we need to mandate this via a special
rule. It makes for an interesting strategy.
I’m not going to contemplate cutting back on I-15s yet until
we’ve got some more testing in. I think we need more data with
the current set-up.
#Post#: 2521--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: chief2000 Date: May 28, 2019, 2:24 pm
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Actually, placing vets in the bombers isn't a player's choice
unless I am reading the special rules incorrectly which require
the nationalist player to place all the vets in CR32s and He51s.
#Post#: 2523--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: chief2000 Date: May 28, 2019, 2:33 pm
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Scenario: O16 Target Madrid
Version: v0.4
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my third playtest of this scenario.
Turn One
No attempts at tally
Hvy flak barrage against Ro37 in two squares
Barrage in first square – no effect
Bomb run – no effect
Hvy flak barrage in second square – no effect
Turn Two
I15 wing leader fails to tally Ro37 despite the +2 for barrage
and veteran status (rolled a one!)
Hvy flak barrage against Ro37 square one nets one loss on Ro37
Hvy flak barrage second square: no effect
Cohesion: good
Hvy flak barrage against He51D nets straggler
Cohesion: good
Hvy flak barrage against Ju52 V no effect
Hvy flak barrage against Cr32 A no effect
Ju52 V bomb run: 25%
Hvy flak ceases barrage and will use direct fire
Turn Three
He51D fails tally of I15 wing leader
I15 leader tallies Ju52V. Instructs E to hit Ju52 Y and F to
concentrate on CR 32 A
Hvy flak df against Ju52Z nets one loss and a straggler
Hvy flak against Ju52 Y no effect
Bomb run Ju52Y no effect
Bomb run Ju52Z no effect
Reaction successful CR 32 A and B
Cr32A vs. I15D and F: I15D loses one;CR32A loses two
Cohesion: CR32A good; I15D breaks
Cr32B vs I15E one loss on I15E and straggler on Cr32B
Cohesion: CR32 disrupted
Dogfights ensue
Turn Four
CR32G tallies I15F
Hvy flak targets Ju52Z no effect
Hvy flak targets Sm81 nets straggler
Cohesion good
SM81 Bomb run 10%
CR32G and A vs I15F nets two losses on I15F
Cohesion: CR32A and G disrupted; I15F broken
CR32B vs. I15E no effect
Cohesion: both break
Victory:
Republican: 3 (one Ro37, two CR32)
Nationalist: 10 (2 hits by Ju52; 1 hit by SM81= 3 hits: ˝
damage=6 vp) + 4 vp for four I15)
10-3=7 draw
Recommendations: Had any vets been available for the bombers
the score may have netted them a point or two which would have
been a Nationalist victory. The bomb die rolls were pretty
close. I could have also had the He51s enter the fray and chase
after the broken I15s but chose not to. Had I realized how
close the point spread was, I would have done so. Take one vet
away from the fighters and add another (total: 6 vets instead of
the current 5) Add them to the bombers – one to the SM81 and
another to one of the Ju52s.
#Post#: 2542--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 2, 2019, 6:54 am
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For the next iteration i will simply remove the special rule
mandating the Nationalist Veteran/Experte placement, allowing
the strategy of placing Veterans in bombers if the Nat player
wants.
#Post#: 2655--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: Gordon Christie Date: June 19, 2019, 4:32 am
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Andrew (Republican) & I have now had several runs through this:
We played run1 with the scenario as written. Despite quality the
nationalist fighters with flights of inferior aircraft were
forced on to the defensive as the Republicans got in among the
bombers where rigid doctrine further encumbered the Nationalists
Final score:
Nationalists: 4 hits for 6 bombing VPs 4 republican fighter shot
down---> +10
Republicans
6 twin & 1 single engined bomber together with 4 fighters
down---> -17 VP
Felt like solid Republican victory. Seemed very difficult to
achieve much as the Nationalists. An He 51 flight defending with
rigid doctrine is 0-1 (1-2 if veteran but there aren't quite
enough Veterans to go round....) and doesn't really help the Ju
52s after bombing (1-1). If anything the intervention of the
escorts makes life easier for the attackers as defender speed
rating is lower (!) & the +2 for defence factor in a turning
fight isn't there. For the He 51s home is probably the safest
place for them to be, especially in flight strength.
Flak also shot down a couple of bombers & is probably
overpowered (as ever). I simply flew the bombers towards the R
map edge as I felt that turning back, while it might delay the
Republican fighter intervention, gave the falk too much time to
make hay.
The narrative also feels a bit odd...how do the Nationalists
have so many veterans & experten when they are flying such poor
aircraft & losing every combat?
We modified the Nationalist setup a bit to go again:
The Cr 32s became 2 squadrons rather than 4 flights as sweeps in
N7 & O7 (this gives them a reasonable turn 1 tally chance on
the I-15 formation-especially if veteran or an outside chance on
the more dangerous high I-16s) while the Republicans have a low
odds tally opportunity on the sweepers from the lead fighters of
both formations (which, as wings have some additional options
even without radio if they do get tallies). this certainly made
the initial fighter vs fighter phase a bit more interesting &
gave the Nationalists a bit more punch (as well s some
opportunities to engage as attackers & benefit from rigid
doctrine). The He 51s became 2 escorting squadrons (He 51
flights are just dreadful defensively with rigid doctrine &, as
noted above, auto breaking & aborting them might even be the
safest thing to do-they add very little even trying to defend Ju
52s!).
We took flak down to heavy flak D in addition
We felt this gave a much more interesting game with options for
both sides & something pretty close to the historical narrative:
First run with this:
Nationalist: 4 bombing hits (+6VP) 6 fighter kills--> +12 VP
Republicans 3 TE bomber 1 SE bomber 1 fighter---> -8 VP
Final score +4 which we felt was a draw.
Second run:
Nationalists:
Bombing 0 hits (dreadful bombing DRs & some bad cohesion results
form barrage flak negating the 1 or 2 better rolls) 9 fighters
shot down---> +9 (the Nationalists definitely had the better
dice air to air; tally rolls in particular went their way
allowing a lot of favourable fighter vs fighter engagements).
Republicans: 2 TE & 1 SE bomber & 2 fighters for -7
Final +2 which we felt was (just) a draw. Overall our feeling
was that this was close to a Republican win due to lack of
bombing results & bomber losses despite a very good performance
form the Nationalist fighters.
Suggested victory levels for the modified scenario:
Republican +1 or less
Draw +2 to +5
Nationalist +6 or more
I think median bombing result will be 3-5 hits for +6 VP.
Getting +12 (7+ hits) for the Nationalists with T bombsights &
some flak about will be a challenge (total bombs value is 46).
Setting this victory level means the Nationalists need to either
bomb well or do reasonably well air to air (which is possible I
think) to win whereas the Republicans need to do well air to air
to offset likely Nationalist bombing outcomes.
..and finally some thoughts on quality:
The scenario is set in 1936, early in the war with 2 air forces
that were rapidly mobilising supported by foreign volunteers
from forces all of which had some degree of organisational
growing pains. The quality level overall just seems very high.
We have few late war scenarios where 50% + of the fighters are
veteran & 40%+ have experten. I know relatively little about the
Spanish Civil War in the air & I'd happily defer to this better
informed but it feels quality overall is a bit high (which might
also contribute to the fact that our tests ae consistently
delivering more kills than the historical outcome-likely in part
reflecting the greater combat persistence of higher quality
units on the cohesion table). I would tentatively suggest
trimming 2 veterans from the Nationalist (especially after
aggregating them into squadrons) together with an experte &
losing the Republican .veteran squadron & adding a Green unit to
the Republican side. It shouldn't significantly affect overall
balance but, in the context of the wider WL ecosystem I do look
at the forces in this scenario & ask myself whether they were
really that good?
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2658--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 19, 2019, 6:55 am
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So, the proposed changes are:
(1) Change the CR.32s from 4 x flight to 2 x squadron, set up in
N7, O7 and change mission to sweep
(2) Change the He 51s from 3 x flight to 2 x squadron, still set
to be escort mission
(3) Change Hvy Flak A to Hvy Flak D
(4) Change the victory levels so that the draw window is +2 to
+5
There's a separate conversation as to whether we change the
aircrew quality, but the proposal is:
(5) Change Nationalist from 5 x Veteran, 3 x Experte to 3 x
Veteran, 2 x Experte
(6) Change Republican from 1 x Veteran to 1 x Green
#Post#: 2659--------------------------------------------------
Re: O16 Target: Madrid
By: Gordon Christie Date: June 19, 2019, 11:02 am
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Correct:-))
Cheers
Gordon
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