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#Post#: 2608--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: chief2000 Date: June 14, 2019, 8:04 am
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I understand the radioless wing tally rule. I wasn't sure so I
made a choice based on my understanding of the language of the
rule. Makes sense. As far as the loss vs air combat, if the
special rule assigns a +2 to an experte on the air combat table,
wouldn't it logically follow that the same value would apply on
the loss table just as the game system does? If this isn't the
case, we may want to clarify it by specifying "air combat table
only." I know this may seem superfluous, but there may be a lot
of other guys like me who may interpret it otherwise and skew
the scenario. Note: In my case, this may have dropped the
Nationalist score to 3 but it still would have been a draw.
I'd be happy to run it again, if you like.
#Post#: 2609--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 14, 2019, 8:10 am
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Do you have any thoughts on what might improve the language of
the special rule. What would have made it more clear for you?
#Post#: 2611--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: chief2000 Date: June 14, 2019, 8:31 am
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Like I said, inserting the word "only" may help. Here are two
alternatives:
3. Assign the Blue Patrol a Veteran and Experte marker. It has
an additional +2 modifier to Cohesion rolls and the Experte adds
+2 to rolls on the air combat table only, instead of +1
3. Assign the Blue Patrol a Veteran and Experte marker. It has
an additional +2 modifier to Cohesion rolls and the Experte adds
+2 to rolls on the air combat table instead of +1. However,
Blue Patrol only adds the normal +1 modifier to the loss table
per 5.2.1.
Lee, I don't want to add greater complexity to an already
extensive set of special rules but I think this one may be
necessary.
#Post#: 2614--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 14, 2019, 4:57 pm
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And what about special rule 7? Is there anything that could be
done there to clarify?
#Post#: 2616--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: chief2000 Date: June 15, 2019, 3:29 pm
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No, I think the wording is fine. After looking at how my first
playtest worked out, I am wondering whether one of these - 7 or
8 is redundant. If the Fiats aren't allowed to move into a
Republican square on turn one, then the best strategy would be
for all of them to circle anyway. Moving in just presents an
easier target for the higher flying I16s, in my opinion. On the
second turn, tallying would be easier anyway if the Republicans
move in. Why not keep 8 and throw out 7? You and others
probably see something I am not seeing.
#Post#: 2621--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 16, 2019, 8:06 am
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This is a good time for Javier to jump in, but the effect we're
trying to achieve with the special rules is how the Fiat Group
held off from the fight, as per their orders, until the Blue
Patrol's antics encouraged the Italians to join in, out of
honour. The net effect, I suppose, is that the Italians simply
don't jojn in the fight on the first turn, though there's a
chance they might at least be able to manoeuvre for position on
the first turn if they tally.
Is there a way to simplify this? One might be to just prevent
the Fiat Group from tallying on the first turn and have them
circle, though this would prevent any turn 1 manoeuvre.
Javier, what are your thoughts?
#Post#: 2669--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: Agm84ssm Date: June 22, 2019, 6:35 pm
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The net effect must be the italians cannot attack in turn 1 and
must be circling meanwhile without any
manouvre. It’s good idea forbid tally attemps in turn 1 to
italians
#Post#: 2671--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 23, 2019, 2:57 am
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Let's try that, then.
#Post#: 2673--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 23, 2019, 3:14 am
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[quote author=Chris Bryans link=topic=75.msg2611#msg2611
date=1560519119]
Like I said, inserting the word "only" may help. Here are two
alternatives:
3. Assign the Blue Patrol a Veteran and Experte marker. It has
an additional +2 modifier to Cohesion rolls and the Experte adds
+2 to rolls on the air combat table only, instead of +1
3. Assign the Blue Patrol a Veteran and Experte marker. It has
an additional +2 modifier to Cohesion rolls and the Experte adds
+2 to rolls on the air combat table instead of +1. However,
Blue Patrol only adds the normal +1 modifier to the loss table
per 5.2.1.
[/quote]
I'm still wrestling with this one. For me, the rule as written
is very specific. You get this modifier on that table. If
someone asks "does this mean they get the modifier to this roll
too?" my answer is, "the rule says you get this modifier on that
table". Adding qualifiers such as 'only' is the kind of thing
that to me adds confusion rather than resolves it. "What does he
mean by 'only', is there a circumstance i don't know about where
it could have applied?" when the answer is 'no'. I'm always
uncomfortable doing that as it's adding unnecessary verbiage.
I absolutely understand the psychology of players assuming that
a change to one rule extends it to myriad other rules, or who
simply misread the rule, but trying to legislate for that just
muddies the text. The rule as written is crystal clear. I'm
going to sit on this one for a bit.
#Post#: 2868--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: Elias Nordling Date: August 2, 2019, 12:09 pm
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v0.4
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
As the nationalists, I put veterans in both bombers with the
hope of scoring as much as possible on bombing. With hindsight
this was a mistake, the Nationalists are not likely to score
more than one point on bombing regardless.
I forgot about the effect of no radio on orders but in the end I
made such gme decisions that it didn't have an effect. For the
republicans i figured the Nationalists needed favourable combats
to win and the best way to prevent those was to bunch up and put
all fighters in a few combats.
That is also what happened. There were basically two ongoing
combats throughout the game, and few of the combats were at odds
favourable to the nationalists. I felt i had a fairly easy time
with the Republicans in controlling the battle and ensuring they
were the attacker as often as possible.
Turn 1:
I16:s tally Ju52s while I15s fail. Blue patrol attacks I15.
Bombing: Both bombers vet.
Ro37: +3: 7. 50%.
Ju52: -2: 6: 0%
Ju52s attacked at +4(+2). 1loss, 1 straggler. Rep I16 Disr.
Blue patrol attacks head-on. No kills because of head-on. No
cohesion hits either. Dogfight.
Ro.37s escape.
Current score: -1
T2:
Fiat group tallies I16s. Afraid both of further VP farming and
being caught in unfavourable fighter fight, 2 units tally each
I16 (they would actually have to tally only one of the I16s, but
since both I16s stuck around it didn't matter). The I15s in turn
gang up on Blue Patrol.
Both I16 stick to the Ju52:s, so only 1,5 Fiat Sq head for them,
the rest go towards the big dogfight developing.
1 shot down in Blue Patrol, but 1 Rep fighter broken, 1 Disr.
In other fight, 1 Ju52 shot down for 1 Republican straggler. 1
Fighter squadron breaks on each side.
Current score: -4
T3: Remaining CR.32s join in fight with Blue patrol, as single
flight keeps defending Ju52s against I16.
In the fight over the Ju52, the last bomber and one CR.32 is
shot down, for 1 I16. The CR.32 breaks.
In the big dogfight, the Nationalists finally get favourable
odds, but only score 2 stragglers. Blue Patrol breaks despite
his super-mods.
Current score: -6
T4:
As dogfight goes on, The I16 pursue the broken CR32 flight. In
the pursuit fight, 1 more CR.32 is downed before the I16 breaks
off.
In dogfight, 1 fighter each lost. All but 1 CR.32 breaks.
Current score: -6
T5-6: Remaining fighter pursues: 1 I15 lost.
Final score:
Nationalists: Bombing 1, 3 fighters: 4
Republicans: 3 Ju52, 3 CR.32: 9
Total: -5 Republican victory
Comments:
Obviously, the scenario didn't go like in history and I felt the
Republicans had all the advantages. For the Republicans,
sticking together was the right tactic. Putting the extra two
veterans in CR.32s will probably help the Nationalists a bit.
Making the Ju52s worth 1 VP each will make them less of a VP
farm. The republicans will still want to attack them to ensure
they are the attackers in combat. Then again, they might want to
not kill them once there is fighter protection to ensure they
kan keep being the attackers...
Special rules 4,6,7,8 could be simplified to: Only the
Republicans roll for tally turn 1, and only against bombers.
After the Republicans have tallied, Blue Patrol can assign a
tally on a target of its choice. The Fiat Group must circle turn
1.
The Ro37:s are unlikely to see combat as they bomb turn 1 and
can then safely escape at the end of the turn.
Define "removed from play" for special rule 5. Does escaping
count?
I'm going to try it again with the vets in fighters to see what
difference it makes, but I have a hard time seeing the
Nationalists rack up a +6 VP advantage unless they roll
seriously lucky in bombing.
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