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#Post#: 2109--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 13, 2019, 3:36 am
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Roger that. I look forward to your thoughts.
#Post#: 2114--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: Kevin Date: March 14, 2019, 11:19 pm
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I look forward to another test flight of this one when ready!
#Post#: 2128--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: Agm84ssm Date: March 16, 2019, 7:45 pm
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Before starting some context notes. This post will be long.
The scenario is about a massive combat of fighters where the
Blue Patrol will have a prominent role.
In February of 1937 the Italian pilots in Spain had received the
order not to enter in combat with the republican fighters if
they was not in conditions of numerical superiority in order to
limit the losses of material and pilots. The bombers continued
to carry out their missions but crossed the front line without
escort. The Italians Cr32 remained orbiting on their side of the
front if a large number of republicans fighters appeared. At
that time there were still no fighters squadrons crewed by
Spaniards. These flew in small groups within the Italian
squadrons. The Nationalists devised an almost suicidal plan to
force the Italians to fight. The Blue Patrol , a flight of 3
Chirri piloted by the best Spanish aces of the nationalists side
received secret orders to attack alone the republican fighters
to force the Italians to fight. That patrol was the cream of the
Spanish aces. Let’s imagine a flight composed of Marseille,
Galland and Molders. In a way, this scenario could be called
Saving pilot Morato.
The singularity of the situation requires thinking very well
about the initial set up and some special rules that reflect the
peculiar situation at the beginning. Bombers that attack their
target without escort. National fighters that orbit without
intent to fight against enemy fighters. Some Republican fighters
that observe nationalists movements and administer their forces.
Crazy nationalists attack on their own.
After reflexing on this situation and reading the AAR of 3 test
games it seemed clear that the scenario needed a modification.
The air set up changes to:
J52 M4. Mission Bombing
Ro37 M2. Mission Bombing
Cr32 L5, M5, K6, L6. Mission CAP
Blue Patrol M6. MIssion CAP
I16 P8 and Q8. MIssion CAP
I15 P6, Q6 and R6. MIssion CAP
The special rules will be:
1.- The national bombers must attack the ground target in turn 1
2.- In turn 1 the republican fighters can only make tally
attempts on the nationalists bombers.
3.- The Republican fighters can only attack the nationalists
bombers in turn 1
4.-The Republicans (defenders) make their attempts tally in
first place and the nationals (raiders) in second place in turn
1. In turn 2, the sequence returns to be the usual. First
raiders and then defenders.
5.- On turn 1, the Italian Cr32 must circling and can tally
normally but can not perform any attack. In turn 2 and
successive can attack normally
6.- The Blue Patrol has an automatic tally on any Republican
squadron on turn 1
7.- The Blue Patrol must attack in turn 1 the unit on which it
has tally
8.- The Blue Patrol has a Veteran marker and an Expert marker.
In any game situation where modifiers are applied by Veteran or
Experten add +2
9.- If an Expert is lost due to the loss of crew (10.7.3) both
sides gain 1 VP.
10.- If the Expert lost due to loss of crew is from the Blue
Patrol, the Republicans win 3VP
AAR
The tally attempts of the Wing Leaders are unsuccessful and
tally must be by squadrons.
2 Chatos tally over Ju52 and attack him (SSR 2 and 3). The
Italians decide not to attempt tallies and the Blue Patrol
chooses to apply its automatic tally to I15 in P6 (SSR 6 and 7).
2 battles are generated, one with 1 I15 against Ju52 that
destroys 1 bomber and leaves Junkers squadron broken. The Blue
Patrol attacks the Chatos head on and with an excellent roll
achieve 3 kills and breaks the Republican squadron
The bombers put 3 hits on ground target
On turn 2, all SSR restrictions are removed. The 2 I15 keep
attacking the Ju52 that seem easy victims. 2 CR32 Italians
achieve tallies and dive down to protect their bombers. The Blue
Patrol also dives to join the fight on the bombers. 1 I16 gets
tally on the Blue Patrol and follows them. In N4 a great combat
is created with 6 fighters squadrons engaged. 2 Cr32 and 1 I16
continue to orbit without tallies
In the great combat, the primary fighters will be the Moscas and
the Blue Patrol. The rolls are very low and only generate 1Hit
for each side. The losses rolls are equally low and the fight
ends without losses. Only 1 staggler against the I16. The
cohesion rolls are high and all the planes keep fighting
although some accumulate dispersed. Nationalists and Republicans
want blood and accept dogfight.
On turn 3, the last I16 and a CR32 are mutually tallied. The
CR32 having inferiority of height decides to enter defensive
lufbery and the Mosca attacks him in a dive but the combat has
no effect. The Italians force a dogfight for the next turn.
The great dogfight in N4 keeps the expectation of everyone. The
I15 de Lacalle and the Blue Patrol are the primary fighters (to
take advantage of Lacalle’s Experten modifier). The nationalists
manage to gain the attack position. Again low dice rolls only
cause 1 Chato and 1 Cr32 shot down. There is no loss of Experten
in any sides. In the cohesion rolls all Republican fighters
break and the Blue Patrol also (one pretty snake eyes).
The broken republican fighters return to their base. 2 Cr32
squads are chasing them but they can not catch them because the
Republicans are diving, gaining speed.
The only fight that continues is the dogfight between the last
republican squadron available and now 2 squadrons of Chirris.
Again the combat does not generate losses and the I16 breaks.
On turn 6 the Italian fighters continue the pursuit of the
Moscas and Chatos that leave the combat area. On turn 7, an I15
squadron runs out of height and is catched by the Chirris but
although the Italians get 2 hits the loss roll is bad again and
there are no casualties.
The scenario ends with 4 I15 shot down against 1 Ju52 and 1
CR32
Final score: +2
Nationalist: 4 I-15 = 4VP. 3 Hits = 1 VP. 5VP
Republicans: 1 Cr32 + 1 JU52 = 3 VP
Draw
The scenario flowed well and the great air combats occurred. The
Blue Patrol was the center of the main combats and the Italians
came to the rescue. Very low dice generated very few casualties
in combat but the flow and the end result is consistent with
real history.
I’ll try again
#Post#: 2132--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 17, 2019, 4:57 am
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Javier, you have made some special rule proposals that I think
will be difficult to legislate. For example, forcing Blue Patrol
to attack on turn 1 is difficult when many potential target
squadrons might be too far away to reach.
There are a few proposals that are redundant or could be
expressed differently. For example, for the bombers we don’t
need to force them to attack on turn 1. We just say they can’t
circle. While forcing the Republicans to only tally bombers on
turn 1 is exactly the same as saying they can only attack
bombers on turn 1.
I understand you want to make Blue Patrol into six-foot
supermen, but I am really uncomfortable with layering so many
benefits on a single unit. It encourages other designers to make
their own super-units. I want to tone this down.
That said, I am going to try and do my best to accommodate your
proposals in a set of special rules that I think will work.
Here’s my counterproposal for special rules:
1. Use the bombing attack rules [15.0].
2. Bomber units may not circle.
3. Assign the Blue Patrol a Veteran and Experte marker. It has
an additional +2 to Cohesion rolls and the Experte adds +2 to
rolls on the air combat table, instead of +1.
4. Set up Blue Patrol with a tally on any enemy.
5. If the Blue Patrol Experte is removed from play, the
Republicans earn 3 VPs.
6. On turn 1, Defenders roll tallies before Raiders.
7. On turn 1 Fiat Group units without a tally must circle
[15.2.3].
8. On turn 1 no unit of the Fiat Group can enter a square
containing a Republican unit.
9. On turn 1, Republicans can only roll tallies on bombers.
Any thoughts?
#Post#: 2141--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: Agm84ssm Date: March 17, 2019, 6:11 pm
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The potential victims for Blue Patrol are I-15 in P6, any
republican fighter attacking Ju52 in O4 or Ro37 in O2. All of
them at range of initial set up position for Blue Patrol
I like your rewrite of the SSR.
Blue Patrol was a Superhero unit but I can live with less
superpowers to them. I like your kryptonized version.
#Post#: 2143--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 18, 2019, 5:19 am
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Rather than saying Blue Patrol can choose an enemy to tally, why
don't we set them up with P6 already targeted? That would
simplify things somewhat.
(In theory they could still drop the tally on turn 1, but I see
no reason why they'd do that.)
#Post#: 2148--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: Agm84ssm Date: March 18, 2019, 2:54 pm
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It,s a good idea
The other victims are the republican fighters probably attacking
the Ju52 or Ro37 in turn 1 but in this combat the Blue Patrol
would be the defender...
#Post#: 2185--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 23, 2019, 6:34 am
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I won't make that change just yet, as I'd like to see what
people do with the current version (v0.3).
#Post#: 2603--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: chief2000 Date: June 13, 2019, 6:31 pm
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Scenario: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
Version: v0.3
Playtesters: Chris Bryans (Solo)
Report: This is my first playtest of this scenario. Note: In
all air combats involving the CR32, it has the edge.
Turn One
CR32B (Blue Patrol) has tally on I15F at start of scenario
I15F (wing leader) tallies Ju52W. I15G and I will hit the Ju52
and F will take care of Blue Patrol.
I16 Wing fails to tally CR32A and circles
CR32A tallies I16J. Special rule 7 requires that all CR32 units
without a tally will circle. Does this negate 9.5.5.1. or does
the Wing Leader’s tally count as the tally for the entire Fiat
Group? I played as if this were the case.
Special Rule 8 doesn’t allow the Fiat Group to enter a
Republican square so all will circle rather than move in too
closely. The one exception is Blue Patrol which will engage
I15F.
Ro37 bomb run no effect (rolled 4)
Ju52 bomb run no effect (rolled 3)
Blue Patrol vs I15F; I15F loses one
Cohesion: I15F disrupts
Blue Patrol good
I15I and G vs. Ju52 nets straggler on Ju52 and a loss on I15I
Cohesion: All good
Turn Two
I16 wing leader tallies CR32A. Instructs second squadron to
engage CR32E
CR32A tallies I16 wing leader. Since CR32 Wing has broken up
CR32E tallies separately I16K successfully.
I16 Wing tallies CR32A. Wing leader will hit CR32A and I16J
will hit CR32E
CR32A fails tally of I16 wing leader (circles to avoid being
jumped)
CR32E fails tally of I16 wing leader (circles to avoid being
jumped)
CR32 C tallies I15I
CR32D fails tally on I15G
I16K vs CR32: I16K loses one
Cohesion: Both good
I15F vs. Blue Patrol I15F loses one. Blue Patrol loses one, one
straggler
Cohesion: I15F broken Blue Patrol disrupted
CR32C vs. I15I: no effect on either
Cohesion: I15I broken
CR32C good
I15G vs Ju52: no effect
CR32A and I16K in dogfight
Turn Three
CR32C drops tally on I15I and tallies I15G.
I15G drops tally on Ju52 and tallies CR32C
CR32E tallies I16J
Blue Patrol drops tally on broken I15F and tallies I16J above
and behind!
CR32D also tallies I16J
CR32E vs I16J: no effect
Cohesion: I16J disrupted
CR32E broken
CR32C vs. I15G
I16K vs CR32A – one I16 lost
Cohesion: I16K and CR32A disrupted
Dogfight ensues between CR32A and I16K and CR32C and I15G
Turn Four
I16J drops tally on broken CR32E and tallies CR32A
Dogfight CR32C and I15G: no effect
Cohesion: CR32C broken
CR32 B and D join dogfight and so does I16J
CR32A, B, and D vs I16 J and K one I16J lost and one straggler,
I16K one straggler
Cohesion: CR32A broken; CR32B good; CR32D good
I26J and K broken
Turn Five
CR32A B and D drop tally on I16s
I15G drops tally on CR32C
All RTB
Victory:
Nationalists: 6 (three I15, three I16)
Republicans: 1 (one CR32)
6-1=5 Draw
Recommendations: I really had to pay attention because of the
nine special rules. That’s the most in any scenario I’ve
played, I think.
Special rule 7 requires that all CR32 units without a tally will
circle. Does this negate 9.5.5.1. or does the Wing Leader’s
tally count as the tally for the entire Fiat Group? I played as
if 9.5.5.1 was negated. Also, Special rule 3 instructs the
Nationalist player to add two instead of one to the Air Combat
Table to reflect the experte “plus” status of Blue Patrol. I
assumed that this would also include adding two to the losses
result. This would be consistent with the game system which
normally adds one to the roll for any experte. Special rules 7,
8 and 9 balance the scenario which would have otherwise been an
easy Nationalist victory had the CRs been allowed to wade into
the opposition. As it was, had the dismal bombing results been
better, it would have been a Nationalist victory (rolls were 4
(Ro. 37) and 3 (Ju52)). I even had a Veteran assigned to the
Ju52 just to make sure but to no avail. Right now, the only
possible changes I would suggest is to clarify the questions I
have above.
#Post#: 2607--------------------------------------------------
Re: O17 Where the Laureate Crosses Grow
By: pilotofficerprune Date: June 14, 2019, 6:13 am
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I don't quite understand how 9.5.5.1 is negated by special rule
7. Special rule 7 simply says that any units in the Fiat group
wing that don't have a tally have to circle. So if in the Tally
Phase of turn 1 a flight or squadron doesn't get a tally, it
circles that turn.
Rule 9.5.5.1 simply limits the number of squadrons in the Fiat
group that can roll for a tally (just one). It also limits the
number of orders given by the wing leader to either one order,
or to order everything against the same target.
So, possible outcomes of this are:
(1) The tally attempt is unsuccessful. The entire wing circles.
(2) The tally attempt is successful. The wing leader issues one
order to a single squadron. The remainder of the wing circles.
(3) The tally attempt is successful. The wing leader issues
orders to all squadrons/flights. Everyone has a tally.
As for the Blue Patrol the special rule specifies the Experte
adds +2 to rolls on the air combat table. It says nothing about
adding +2 to loss checks.
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