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#Post#: 974--------------------------------------------------
O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 19, 2019, 4:28 am
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New scenario thread for playtest of Less Trucks, More Balls.
Please do not create a new thread for this scenario.
#Post#: 1791--------------------------------------------------
O18 Less Trucks, More Balls - QUESTIONS
By: guest26 Date: February 17, 2019, 1:15 pm
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Hello,
I played this scenario in solitarie mode this afternoon.
Before submitting the usual AAR I want to try to make clear my
assumptions on some rules about bombing.
I am afraid I misunderstood something that could have influenced
the scenario outcome.
1) I supposed that fighters and bombers tasked with "STRAFING"
mission carry a normal bombload. This makes the I-15 fighter
bombers.
2) I am somehow not sure on how to handle the situation when
bombers or strafing fighters or bombers passed through the
target hex
during their movement without stopping there. Usual situation is
a bomber performing level bombing profile that starts adjacent
to the target column.
I suppose the correct sequence is: the bomber moves in the
target column, it drops bombs and the continue movement. Flack
barrage attacks have effect
before the bombing results (and thus can influence the bombing
rolls) while direct fire attack and air to air combat have
effect after the resolution of bombing
results.
3) I suppose that a fighter, or bomber, can strafe multiple
targets in the same turns while flying over them. Again, I
applied barrage flack attack (in this scenario a lot of
ground units have an S0 value applying small arms barrage
attacks in their hexes).
#Post#: 1793--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: Elias Nordling Date: February 17, 2019, 2:02 pm
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[quote]1) I supposed that fighters and bombers tasked with
"STRAFING" mission carry a normal bombload. This makes the I-15
fighter bombers.[/quote]
Correct. If it was just strafing without boms it would be sweep
mission.
[quote]2) I am somehow not sure on how to handle the situation
when bombers or strafing fighters or bombers passed through the
target hex
during their movement without stopping there. Usual situation is
a bomber performing level bombing profile that starts adjacent
to the target column.
I suppose the correct sequence is: the bomber moves in the
target column, it drops bombs and the continue movement. Flack
barrage attacks have effect
before the bombing results (and thus can influence the bombing
rolls) while direct fire attack and air to air combat have
effect after the resolution of bombing
results.[/quote]
Barrages take place in the movement phase but direct firing flak
also takes place before bombing, but in the combat phase.
Otherwise you are correct. The sequence in the combat phase is
flak - bombing - air to air combats.
[quote]3) I suppose that a fighter, or bomber, can strafe
multiple targets in the same turns while flying over them.
Again, I applied barrage flack attack (in this scenario a lot of
ground units have an S0 value applying small arms barrage
attacks in their hexes). [/quote]
Per 15.3, you can only make one attack on ground targets per
turn. This is a fairly recent rule added to handle this specific
situation.
#Post#: 1795--------------------------------------------------
O18 Less Trucks, More Balls - AAR
By: guest26 Date: February 17, 2019, 2:21 pm
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Scenario: 018 Less Trucks, more balls
Version: scenario: v0.1, rules: v2.1
Playtesters: SOLO
Report: The two Nationalist squadron went one against the SB
bombers and one against the other Republican coming from the
west.
The squadron that went against the SBs splitted in two flights
(tactical flexibility) and managed to criplle the SBs (8 were
shot down for 16VPs).
on the west side of the battle a complicated melee resulted with
the fighter bombers bombing with glide bombing attack and the
R-Zs with level bombing attack
but with no practical results. The Cr32 squadron was finally
attacked by all the three Republican fighter squadrons but
despite the numerical inferiority managed
to obtain more hits than its enemies. While the fighter
doghfighted above them, the R-Zs after bombing go down to strafe
the CTV troops but did not
inlict heavy losses and also sufferd some loesses from AA fire
(total of 3 R-Zs shot down while strafing, due to extraordinary
efficiency of the Italian Flack).
As usual the fighter broke after a few rouds of air combat and,
with all the bomber done with their allowed two strafing
attacks, everyone returned home.
Victory:
Republican bombers and fighter bombers managed to obtain these
results:
- 1 hit by strafing on the supply depot by SBs (1VP)
- 2 hits by strafing on the Artillery unit (one by I-15s and 1
by R-Zs) (2VPs)
- 2 hits on Troops (glide bombing from I-15s) (1VP)
Republicans shot down 8 CR42s (8 VPs)
TOTAL republican VPs: 12
Nationalists shot down 2 I-15s, 1 I-16 and 8 Sbs for a TOTAL of
19VP
Total: -7 Nationalist VPs - Huge Nationalist victory.
I think the results depended heavily on three factors:
1) very poor bombing results for the Republicans
2) a lot of SBs shot down, here the Republican payed heavily for
not escorting them properly. The choesion rolls for the two
CR-32s flights went very well
allowing an unusual number of attacks on the bombers. The
presence of the Experte pilot also helped in transforming a
number of "straggler" results in
"loss result
3) for three turns we had the three Republican fighter squadrons
dogfighting with a single CR 32 squadron, but even with +3/+4
against -2/-3 starting
column positions, the CR-32 inflicted more losses than their
ones, keeping faith to their historical very high efficiency in
air combat during the Civil War.
I will replay the scenario next week, trying different tactics
for the Republicans; I think I had to better judge the possible
bombing profile available
in order to try obtain better results on the ground troops.
Overall an interesting scenario with big historical feeling in
having these old fashioned planes fighting for air superiority
over a battlefield were the
bomber were trying to make an impact on the ground troops. I
searched some images of the actual planes involved and found
some beautiful ones
for example here
HTML https://www.pinterest.it/pin/169870217179023072/
#Post#: 1805--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 18, 2019, 2:13 am
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It looks as if you had an outlier result here. I would have
expected the bombing to pick up more VPs and the CR.32s to do
less than they did against the SBs. I'll try to look at the
numbers later.
#Post#: 1809--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 19, 2019, 2:32 am
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Okay, so let's look at bombing outputs in this scenario. I will
not account for strafing yet, though that could potentially rack
up a couple more hits.
R-Z Bombing
R-Zs optimal bombing profile is to glide bomb from altitude 1,
above the small-arms flak. This would give total mods of +1 (+1
glide bombing, altitude -1, no flak +1) with no chance of flak
interference.
This gives a mean output of 2.31 bombing hits. Chances of hits
are as follows:
1 hit = 83.3%
2 hits = 58.3%
4 hits = 27.8%
8 hits = 8.3%
SB Bombing
The SB optimal bombing profile is to level bomb from altitude 1,
above the small arms flak. This would give total mods of +1 (no
flak +1), with no chance of flak interference.
This gives a mean output of 2.97 bombing hits. Chances of hits
are as follows:
1 hit = 83.3%
3 hits = 58.3%
5 hits = 27.8%
10 hits = 8.3%
I-15 Bombing
R-Zs optimal bombing profile is to glide bomb from altitude 1,
above the small-arms flak. This would give total mods of +1 (+1
glide bombing, altitude -1, no flak +1) with no chance of flak
interference.
This gives a mean output of 1.03 bombing hits. Chances of hits
are as follows:
0 hit = 83.3%
1 hits = 58.3%
2 hits = 27.8%
4 hits = 8.3%
Assuming no fighter interference, the total hits from bombs (not
strafing) should be 9.65.
Recommendations
What strikes me about this scenario is that we have few bombing
units delivering low payloads, but large numbers of targets,
some of which are very high value (particularly the supplies).
The targets are also very spread out, with greater or lesser
amounts of cloud cover, making it hard for the defence to cover
them all.
It seems to me that we might need to consider culling some of
the targets to allow the bombers to focus on them, and to
concentrate the action over a narrower section of airspace.
My proposal is to cull the following targets:
Troops in L0
Artillery in M0
Supply in T0
This leaves us the remaining targets:
Troops in O0, Trucks in P0, Train in S0
Of these the highest value targets are the Trucks and Train.
With these changes the I-15s and R-Zs should be able to achieve
a mean of 6.68 against the trucks, for 12 VP. The SBs should be
able to achieve 2.97 hits on the train for 5 VP.
#Post#: 1813--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: Al Cannamore Date: February 19, 2019, 10:16 am
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I just set this one up. Want me to play it with the changes Lee?
#Post#: 1814--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 19, 2019, 11:09 am
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Yes please, can you give it a run?
#Post#: 1819--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: Al Cannamore Date: February 19, 2019, 5:55 pm
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Modified v0.1 Playtest (modified targets per above post)
Solitaire
Initial thoughts...
I don't see a reason to go after the troops and risk the small
arms when juicier targets are nearby.
Removal of artillery doesn't allow play of the scenario per the
Aftermath description. Just pointing this out, no change
required.
SSR3: who is LaCalle and why was he significant to this
scenario?
The I-15s and R-Zs set up in a formation that qualifies them to
get the formation tally drm against them.
15.3.7 says FP0 aircraft can't strafe but then goes on to say
FP0 aircraft get a strafing FP of 1. I'm confused.
Probably won't intercept the SBs before they bomb.
But...they're where the points are. So best to set up at least
one CR sqn with the experte to have the best chance of
intercept.
CR.32 split limit is 2 so I can only split one of the two CR.32
squadrons.
Set Up an end game maps posted below.
Turn 1:
No tallies.
Everyone plods. The SBs position for a glide bomb attack next
turn.
Turn 2:
The right most CR tallies the SBs. The I-16 tallies the left CR
which then tallies the lead R-Z and splits.
The I-16/CR flt/R-Z merge into a ball.
The other CR flt maneuvers to bounce the other R-Z sqn.
The SBs glide bomb the train rolling an 11. +1 glide, +1 no flak
and the trains are obliterated for 10 hits and 15 VPs.
The SBs didn't strafe but could have? I need to look that up.
But considering they scored so many bombing VP, why
strafe...unless you have to declare that before rolling the bomb
attack. I've got some rules reading to do.
The CR/SB combat yields an SB loss and the CR sqn disrupts.
Turning fight (which I selected) is better here I believe.
In the CR flt/I-16/R-Z combat an R-Z is lost. The I-16 misses
and disrupts. The CR flight breaks. Both sides blowing a lot of
hot air around.
Turn 3:
The CR flt tallies the other R-Z sqn. The I-16 tally is trapped
in square with the broken CR flight.
The remaining CR flight attacks the R-Z sqn. The I-16 maneuvers
into the same square but because it is not part of the chain of
tallies, will sit out the coming combat.
The right most CR follows the SB two squares to the right and
bounces them out of the sun...you know, the SBs should have
continued moving left to exit...my bad but the now non-bounce
didn't affect the combat result. But if they did continue moving
right they would be bounced out of the sun every turn. Good
thing they move left.
The CR/SB combat yields a massacre (rolled a 12) on the SBs with
3 losses and a straggler. Neither achieves a cohesive result so
the massacre will continue.
The CR flight/R-Z combat yields a R-Z loss which disrupts.
The broken CR flt escapes off the left edge.
Turn 4:
The I-16 tallies the CR flight and fangs start to grow.
The lead R-Z glide bombs the trucks and rolls a 9, +1 glide, +1
no flak and it scores 50% for 4 hits and 8 more VPs. Those
trucks were loaded with silver and gold and gold and silver.
The CR/I-16/R-Z combat is a bust for the Nationalists with a CR
loss and resulting break. No hits on the Republicans and
surprisingly, no additional disruption to the I-16.
The CR/SB fight yields another SB loss...well a straggler
becomes a loss. The CRs break. The SBs continue collectively
cohesive, all 5 of them.
With all the Defenders broken and a victory securely in hand,
the game is called.
VPs:
Nationalists: 5 SBs (10) and 2 R-Z (2) = 12
Republicans: Trains (15) and trucks (08) obliterated. 23 for
bombing +1 for a CR = 24. Final is a draw you say? Well there
are still a disrupted R-Z and 2 I-15 squadrons that can bomb and
strafe unmolested. Chances are good that the Republicans can
gain that 1 more VP for a complete victory.
It certainly felt like a Republican victory.
Closing thoughts:
The SBs must be attacked. A lucky tally roll would allow them to
be attacked the turn before they bomb. That didn't happen in my
game.
With that said, the Nationalist set up and follow-on strategy is
somewhat set. I split the CR sqn's to the left and right. Next
time I think I'd set them both up right to go after the SBs.
Bring back the targets? I see no reason to attack the troops so
real options are a little limited.
Use a SSR to add small arms to all the targets. At least make
the Republican's sweat a bit and to negate that no flak mod.
If the Nationalists go for the left force of Republican's, they
are out numbered and out positioned. They're also defending the
lowest VP targets on the map. I don't see a reason why you would
do this. Best to place both CR sqn's to focus on the SBs. The
good news for the Republicans is that it frees up the trucks to
unmolested obliteration. The bad news is that the SBs will
probably be obliterated in return; and that would mean a draw if
not outright Nationalist victory if I played this again.
Al
#Post#: 1820--------------------------------------------------
Re: O18 Less Trucks, More Balls
By: Al Cannamore Date: February 19, 2019, 6:04 pm
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Set UP [attach=2][attach=1]
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