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#Post#: 2012--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 4, 2019, 2:06 am
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Kevin, I’m trying to parse your perfected opening.
[quote author=Kevin link=topic=72.msg2008#msg2008
date=1551645797]My perfected German opening is this: Vet +
Experte in K9; if you're lucky to get the Tally on O5 SB, split
into flights and order the entire Wing to Tally O5.[/quote]
I just wanted to check that this is what you want to do. Having
achieved a tally against O5, both 9.9.5 and 9.5.5.1 permit you
to assign tallies to any bomber squadron in that formation. So
you can split the wing leader’s squadron into flights (9.5.5.1
permits only one split in the wing) and then have the two
flights and the squadron each be assigned an SB squadron.
[quote author=Kevin link=topic=72.msg2008#msg2008
date=1551645797]T1 movement: circle the J8 squadron while
reversing the flights into J9 and then reverse again to face the
onslaught. On T2 Tally, roll the single allowed Tally from J8
squadron and hope to Tally a second SB squadron. If successful,
then order the second flight to tally the third SB
squadron.[/quote]
This is the bit that confused me. As I said above, 9.5.5.1
already permits you to order tallies on separate SB squadrons in
the T1 Tally Phase. There’s no need to re-roll on T2 unless you
failed the wing leader’s T1 Tally.
Secondly, according to your first sentence, the wing had all
been ordered to tally O5. So I assume the J8 circling squadron
is dropping the tally and then re-rolling in T2, is that
correct?
Now, this makes perfect sense to me if the product of the new
tally roll is to use it as a trigger to split the J8 squadron
into flights. If you did split in such a fashion, then one
flight would have to continue sweeping while the other pursued
its tally.
[quote author=Kevin link=topic=72.msg2008#msg2008
date=1551645797]From this distance, only the leading I-16 can
attempt a Tally on T2 and only successful on a 6. This means a
pretty big probability you can get three bounces in succession
with two veteran flights and an intact squadron. I can't
imagine a more opportune position, than diving out of the sun
while the SB's are still fully laden with bombs. thumbnail
below shows the the Turn 2 dive out of the sun just before
combat
Is this a legal move with the 109's?[/quote]
I’m still a bit confused as to what you’re doing, as it seems
inefficient. You should be able to order separate tallies in the
T1 Tally Phase, assuming the wing leader tallies the bomber
formation (an 83% chance by my reckoning), and set up your
bounces. Other than that, though, there’s no reason why you
can’t achieve bounces on the SBs and tear them a new one, as
historically.
#Post#: 2013--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 4, 2019, 2:19 am
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[quote author=Kevin link=topic=72.msg2008#msg2008
date=1551645797]Question 2: On the turn the I-16's return to
base, can they Circle? I used this to hold them in place while
the Bombers flew underneath, and to then tally up and join the
remaining fights. If that's not legal, then the Game 3 score
might have been higher.[/quote]
This is not a bombing mission, so sweeps can’t circle. Rather,
they reverse direction, which could cause problems if they
haven’t already tallied.
[quote author=Kevin link=topic=72.msg2008#msg2008
date=1551645797]Recommendations: In the revised setup, there is
no cohesion bonus, but I think it was mentioned earlier. I'm
not sure how much this will help, but it could prove useful. In
my 3 proper games, there was at least once where a bonus would
have kept an Me109 in the fight for another turn or more. In my
games above, the Rats always get in some shots at the 109's to
sap the score they rack up against the Bombers. The
Nationalists need something, or I feel the VP's need to drop
some more. Perhaps ther VC's should be shifted back to Version
0.1 VC's. If so, then two of the above games would be Draws
which feels right. The second game was a Republican blowout and
I feel that should certainly be a win to them.[/quote]
What I’m seeing is that the Bf 109s aren’t racking up quite as
many kills as they should. That might have something to do with
the I-16s circling. But it suggests I need to drop the draw
window by a couple of VPs.
We could buff the 109s somehow, to increase the kill rate, but
I’d like to avoid that if we can.
You mention that your playing did not have the cohesion bonus,
but the current version (v0.4) has it and it’s been in there
since at least v0.3. We could do with a test for the current
edition of the scenario.
#Post#: 2014--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Kevin Date: March 4, 2019, 2:35 am
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Thanks Lee for working through my questions and sorry if it was
confusing! I missed that bit about other squadrons in the
formation in point (3) of 9.5.5.1, so makes sense. Short answer
is the ideal opener is possible and no need to fiddle around
unless trying to split the second squadron as you stated.
Apologies for missing the Cohesion Bonus. I printed off v0.1
and marked it up with the 5 point changes introduced in this
thread. Just to confirm my next playthrough: should this be
v0.4 plus the five points?
I agree with you the 109's shouldn't be bigged-up too much as
the scenario nicely demonstrates their early weaknesses.
#Post#: 2017--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 4, 2019, 4:23 am
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v0.4 includes all the changes listed in the five points.
#Post#: 2021--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Kevin Date: March 4, 2019, 7:47 am
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[quote author=Lee Brimmicombe-Wood link=topic=72.msg2017#msg2017
date=1551695034]
v0.4 includes all the changes listed in the five points.
[/quote]
Ok, I’m rebooting from the start and will come back with some
useful testing.
#Post#: 2023--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 4, 2019, 11:54 am
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I think these tests were useful in that we have got a good view
of the puzzle.
I have to say that a lot of Javiers scenarios begin from a
really good place in terms of their construction and design.
#Post#: 2025--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Kevin Date: March 4, 2019, 12:35 pm
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They are good scenarios indeed. Makes me want to pick up a book
about the Spanish Civil War and broaden my knowledge a bit,
which is a good outcome!
#Post#: 2026--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Kevin Date: March 4, 2019, 3:09 pm
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Scenario: O20 A fine Winters Day
Version: v0.4
Playtesters: Solo
Report:
Game 1 I took advantage of the sun in left upper to get the
bounce though this is a disadvantage for the 109s in making the
head on attacks. The Experte flight was the only one close
enough to the leading squadron of SBs to dive from above and not
suffer the head on attack -2 drms. As it turned out the Nats
just missed getting enough for a draw.
Game 2 was time for cat and mouse. I reverted to my plan of
moving K9 back to J9 and let the bombers get closer. The
leading Rat didn't get the required roll of 6 for a Tally on T2
which left the Nats to assault all three squadrons from above.
In the following melee only one green Rat got involved. The
other two turned for home and never Tallied. For the second
strike I let the bombers pull away while gaining a level of
altitude. Then I arranged speed dives out of the sun but at the
tails of the bombers, so no head on attack drms. The bounces
really paid off for the Experte who claimed 4 SBs overall.
Victory: Nat. KIAs Rep. KIAs Total
Game 1: 5xSB 2x109 +8VP
Republican Victory
Game 2: 7xSB, 1xI-16 2x109 +13VP Nationalist
Victory!
Luck: Average though in both games only one I-16 tallied.
Version 0.4 flows really well and in my opinion the victory
conditions are just right. A few rolls either way and these two
games could have ended up differently. Having now downed 7 SBs
I can see that the historical blowout is possible. In game 2 I
also had two SB stragglers. I'd be happy to sign this one off
now I finally got my act together with the right version, and
rules understanding!
#Post#: 2028--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: March 5, 2019, 2:25 am
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Thanks, Kevin! I'll run the numbers on this with your new test
data, just to double-check, but I'll mark you as having signed
off on this one.
#Post#: 2032--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Elias Nordling Date: March 5, 2019, 2:05 pm
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v0.4
Player: Elias Nordling (solo)
I saw an opportunity to do a quick sign off on this one as it
already has one, but I guess I'll be playing it again. Since I
last played, the change of the Republican fighters to sweep has
changed the dynamics of the scenario for the better, and adds a
great deal of tactical decisions. The fact that the Republican
sweep turns at the same time as the bombers means the Green
Republican fighters have a very poor chance of tallying. this is
definitely something the Nationalist should take into account
when positioning his units, especially turn 2. I like this
unusual aspect of the scenario.
In this game, the Nationalists had a good first turn, but the
luck ran out. Two things faoured the Republicans. One was that
two of the 4 Nationalist flights broke early. The other that
both green Republican fighters passed low probability cohesion
rolls. In the end, the republicans lost 3 bombers and afighter
to 3 nationalist fighters. The score was a clear republican win,
and it felt like one.
Comments: I'm not sure splitting the nationalists is the obvious
right choice, and I like that the right choice isn't obvious.
However, I'm not ready to sign off on this one yet, as I want
to try out two game changing and possibly game breaking tactics:
1) As the Nationalists, don't split and only tally the front
bomber. The two squadrons alternate diving on that bomber. If
the Republican Green fighters don't pass their tally rolls on
turn 2, they will probably not be able to tally for the rest of
the game.
2) Put the Green Republicans into the bombers. Duh.
If 2) proves too effective, it is easy to legislate away with a
special rule, but it might be a two-edged sword, as the Bombers
will rack up more losses if the Nationalists get in enough
attacks on undefended bombers. I'll have to try to see if it
works.
2) obviously defeats 1) but if 2) is legislated away, 1) might
turn into a problem. Or not, it might be easier to negate with
the placement of Republican Greens than it looks. I'll have to
try it to find out.
Obviously, any scenario that generates tactics on this level is
a good scenario.
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