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#Post#: 1441--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Al Cannamore Date: February 3, 2019, 10:05 pm
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I'm gonna try to solo this one this week.
#Post#: 1456--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Agm84ssm Date: February 4, 2019, 4:42 pm
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Play Testing WL SCW
A FINE WINTER DAY
The reason for being of this scenario is the interception by a
group of Messers of a large bomber force badly escorted. The SB2
were a key and scarce resource for the Republic that rarely was
seen in such quantity. The other incentive of the scenario is to
allow a good air combat between the 2 best airplanes of each
side. The Messer and the Rat. In that combat, the Legion Condor
pilots must prevail thanks to their experience superiority
(veterans + Ace) and their tactics (tactical flexibility +
determination) in a confrontation between virtually identical
aircraft. The Messer has a slight advantage in climbing speed
and the Rat fits more damage.
V.02-03
Enter all the proposed changes. I find them excellent ideas to
give qualitative and tactical superiority to the Nationalists.
But the idea of ​​reducing from 3 to 2 Republican
squadrons do not like me. There were 3 squads of Rats defending
the SB2 and I´ll use 3 I-16 even though 1 will be Green.
There was a doubt about how republican bombers should proceed.
Republican bombers can not ESCAPE. Republican bombers are loaded
.The republican bombers change the mission to Return to base
after they have been attacked and after combat resolution.
Combat Phase. Point 4. While they are not attacked they
maintain movement of 2 squares per turn and their height
1 German squadron was splited into 2 flights and attacked 2
bombers. 2 Republican squadrons managed to react and intercepted
the Messers before they could attack the SB2s. 1 fighter from
each side fell down. These combats degenerated into separate
dogfight. The Germans accepted the dogfigth with a curious idea.
Destroy the enemy fighters and then dedicate themselves to
attacking the bombers at will. The remaining squadron of Bf109
faced an I16 squadron while the 2 previous dogfights continue.
At the end of turn 2, 3 Bf109 are destroyed in exchange for 5
I16 and 1 Messers flight is released to attack the bombers.
Interesting that not being attacked by anyone, the bombers are
still flying below the air combats confident to move forward.
Turn 3 is tough for Republicans, all Republican figthers
squadrons are Broken and lose 3 I16 more. The Nationalists have
1 squad ron Broken but their 2 flights are free to start the
hunting of the Katiuskas. The first pass knocks down 2 Sb2. The
bombers jettison bombs and initiate the return to their base. In
turn 4 the bombers are in full retreat but the german does not
hurry. Both flights take height and prepare to perform a series
of divings and bouncings. On turn 5, another 2 SB2 fall and a
flight of Bf109 become Broken a nd leaves the combat. There is
only one nationalist flight ready for combat. With a lucky
cohesion dices the will get 4 more attack runs. Only kill 1
SB2 more and raise the total number of bombers down to 5. In
exchange the Republican gunners claim 1 Bf109 destroyed.
Final score: 6
Nationalists: 5 bombers = 10, 8 I16 shot down: 18
Republicans: Exiting bombers 6 + 0 + 2, 4 Bf109 shot down: 12
Republican victory but it seems like a nationalists victory
Suggestions
Explicitly forbid Close Escort for Republicans
If you want to give the Nationalsist more initial advantage, you
could apply an -1 modifier to all the republican Tally or
Reaction rolls in turn 1. The Republican fighters were badly
placed and arrived late to help their bombers.
I think we have complicated our lives with Victory Points. In
the original scenario there was no rule allowing the
republicans to obtain VP for exiting bombers. Neither Balthasar
nor the boys of Calamocha were worried about the distributed
destruction. The key is to destroy bombers that were a key and
scarce resource of the Republicans.
My proposal is to eliminate the PV granted exiting bombers. If
ESCAPE is prevented, the Republican player has no other option
but to defend his bombers .
The victory conditions could be:
Republican Victory: +8 or less
Draw.+9 to +11. A little worse than the historical result
Nationalists victory if something similar or better than the
historical result is achieved: +12 or more
If we calculate the victory of the previous test with this new
mode, things change
Nationalist: 5 bombers = 10 VP + 8 VP for 8 I16 shot down
Republicans: 4 VP for 4 Bf109 shot down
Final Score: +14
Nationalists victory
#Post#: 1457--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Elias Nordling Date: February 5, 2019, 12:21 am
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I appreciate the feedback of the scenario designer and agree
that there are other ways of reducing the effectiveness of the
Republicans than reducing their numbers. Quality is one factor
you can work with.
You mention that the escorts were late and poorly coordinated.
This is a feature of several Japanese scenarios in earlier
packages, and it is handled by making the escorts sweeps instead
and setting them up behind the bombers. You could have a special
rule if you wish, that they are allowed to form up with the
bombers and become escorts like the rules work for sweeps having
previously been escorts.
#Post#: 1461--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 5, 2019, 2:56 am
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Elias is correct that one technique for ensuring escorts don't
coordinate with bombers is to make them sweeps.
#Post#: 1462--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 5, 2019, 7:16 am
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Great feedback Javier! Okay, some thoughts:
(1) If we go back to three I-16 squadrons we may need to play
with quality, to ensure the additional squadron is not
over-powerful. I'd say increase the Green markers by one.
(2) I like the idea of setting the escorts up as sweeps to limit
their ability to come to the rescue of the bombers and make them
function like poor escorts.
(3) Agreed that the escorts cannot set up in close escort
positions.
(4) The main reason for the exit VP special rule is to try and
encourage the Bf 109s to spread themselves against the bombers
and not pile onto a single SB squadron. Though the small number
of 109s--effectively four flights--suggests that might not be
that big a problem. So, I'm okay to go with Javier's proposal, I
guess.
(5) Let's keep the idea about modifying the first turn tallies
on hold for the next iteration. We can certainly implement it if
it's too easy for the I-16s to keep the Messers at bay.
(6) I'll crunch the numbers on Javier's victory conditions
proposal, but at first glance it looks solid.
#Post#: 1468--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Agm84ssm Date: February 5, 2019, 1:28 pm
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Lee and Elias
I’ll play the scenario again with these changes:
3 I16, one with Green marker
Republicans with sweep mission but then we must give squares for
set up
I’ll try Q8, R8 and R7
From these positions I think it is practically impossible for
the republicans figthers to achive a tally in turn 1
#Post#: 1521--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Agm84ssm Date: February 6, 2019, 5:42 pm
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A NICE WINTER DAY
V.02-03
We tested the scenario with 3 republicans I16 , one of them
Green. The republican figthers had a Sweep mission . A set up
was assigned to the republican fighters: Q8-R8 and R7
The Nacionalists got an easy tally on 2 SB2. The Republicans
failed all their tally (the deployment made it impossible for
Republicans to have tallies in turn 1). The BF 109 attacked to
pleasure without reaction of the fighters (they are in mission
Sweep without possibility of reactions). 2SB are destroyed. The
bombers jettison bombs and in the next turn they will turn
towards their base. In turn 2 only one squadron of I-16 manages
to detect the enemy but its prey dives below the formation of
bombers and eludes the attack. On the other hand the Balthasar's
squadron makes a second pass on the bombers and they destroy a
third SB2. In turn 3 the Republican fighters are still unable to
see the enemy and a massive combat with a chain of tallies is
generated over the squadron that leads the formation of bombers
. 1 SB2 is attacked by a Messer that in turn is attacked by an
I16 that in turn is attacked by a Bf109. Very low dice rolls
only allow 1 I16 shot down. The only Republican fighter squadron
in combat is broken and both nationalists squadrons are
disrupted. On turn 4 finally another I16 squadron gets tally
over the germans. The nationalists planes are into the formation
of republican bombers and they can not make tally out the square
they occupy so another multiple combat is generated between
bombers, escorts and attacking fighters. But again low dice
rolls prevent any loss and also the cohesion rolls break both
german squadrons. The german fighters retreat but the last
squadron of republican figthers gets a tally and harasses them
in their retreat for 2 turns until it runs out of ammo and
breaks. The effort has no reward because neither side applies
damage. After 6 combat turns the scenario ends.
Former Victory Conditions
Final score: 5
Nationalists: 3 bombers = 6 + 1 I16 shot down: 7
Republicans: Exiting bombers 6 + 4 + 2 = 12
Republican victory
Victory condition under testing
Nationalist: 3 bombers = 6 VP + 1 VP for 1 I16 shot down
Republicans: 0 VP
Final Score: +7
Republican Victory
The scenario has flowed well. The nationalists have had time to
make 2 attacks on the bombers without opposition and only the
republicans bad Tally dice rolls have prevented a better
reaction of their fighters. These have intervened piecemeal in
combat and even so have managed to hamper the germans. The dice
also play and for the german side their low rolls in the combats
have prevented them from knocking down 2 or 3 enemy planes more
which could have given them the victory. Tactically shot down 3
bombers and 1 enemy fighter can be considered a victory but it
is far from the success historically achieved by the
nationalists so it seems fair that it is a Republican victory in
terms of game
Suggestions
The idea of ​​converting the Republican fighters
from Escort to Sweep has worked perfectly
When the bombers begin their return to base, the Republican
fighters in Sweeo mission stop moving to the far side of the
board and do so to their side unless they are chasing or
attacking an enemy
#Post#: 1528--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 7, 2019, 3:00 am
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Great AAR! Interestingly, in your two tests the mean VP output
has been 10.5, which sits neatly in the draw window.
Good point regarding the need to have a special rule to handle
turning the sweep back.
#Post#: 1598--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 10, 2019, 2:12 am
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For reference we are going with Javier’s suggestions:
(a) Restore 'escorts' to 3 squadrons but convert them to a sweep
(b) Set the 'escorts' up in positions where it's hard to tally
on the first turn
(c) Lose the complex VP-for-exit rule
(d) Introduce a new special rule reversing the direction of
sweep on the turn the bombers return to base
(e) Set the victory levels to those suggested by Javier
#Post#: 2008--------------------------------------------------
Re: O20 A Fine Winter's Day
By: Kevin Date: March 3, 2019, 2:43 pm
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Scenario: O20 A fine Winters Day
Version: v0.1, but with the latest amendments per Lee's last
post:
(a) Restore 'escorts' to 3 squadrons but convert them to a sweep
(b) Set the 'escorts' up in positions where it's hard to tally
on the first turn
(c) Lose the complex VP-for-exit rule
(d) Introduce a new special rule reversing the direction of
sweep on the turn the bombers return to base
(e) Set the victory levels to those suggested by Javier: <=8
Republican Victory, 9-11 Draw, >11 Nationalist Victory
Playtesters: Solo
Report:
The Test Lab is back open! I've played 3 runs and think I've
perfected the German opening. That's assuming you only split
the Veteran squadron and leave the other intact. My first game,
I split one squadron. Second game I left them both intact and
lost considerably.
Victory: Nat. KIAs Rep. KIAs Total
Game 1: 5xSB 2x109 +8VP
Republican Victory
Game 2: 3xSB 3x109 +3VP
Republican Victory
Game 3: 5xSB 2x109 +8VP
Republican Victory
Luck: Even for the most part.
Question: My perfected German opening is this: Vet + Experte
in K9; if you're lucky to get the Tally on O5 SB, split into
flights and order the entire Wing to Tally O5. T1 movement:
circle the J8 squadron while reversing the flights into J9 and
then reverse again to face the onslaught. On T2 Tally, roll
the single allowed Tally from J8 squadron and hope to Tally a
second SB squadron. If successful, then order the second flight
to tally the third SB squadron. From this distance, only the
leading I-16 can attempt a Tally on T2 and only successful on a
6. This means a pretty big probability you can get three
bounces in succession with two veteran flights and an intact
squadron. I can't imagine a more opportune position, than
diving out of the sun while the SB's are still fully laden with
bombs. thumbnail below shows the the Turn 2 dive out of the sun
just before combat
Is this a legal move with the 109's?
Assuming the above is legal, each of the three attacks works out
to +2/-2 German favor, with a bounce on each if no I-16 is
involved. I rolled a bunch of dice to test this T2 ambush and
it wasn't really decisive. On average this is about 5 or 6 hits
on SB's. Being generous, you could down 3 planes on average in
this strike and then with the action going on underneath the
Rats' noses, it will become more difficult from T3, where they
get a Tally phase pointing to the left, before they have to also
turn for home.
Question 2: On the turn the I-16's return to base, can they
Circle? I used this to hold them in place while the Bombers
flew underneath, and to then tally up and join the remaining
fights. If that's not legal, then the Game 3 score might have
been higher.
Recommendations: In the revised setup, there is no cohesion
bonus, but I think it was mentioned earlier. I'm not sure how
much this will help, but it could prove useful. In my 3 proper
games, there was at least once where a bonus would have kept an
Me109 in the fight for another turn or more. In my games above,
the Rats always get in some shots at the 109's to sap the score
they rack up against the Bombers. The Nationalists need
something, or I feel the VP's need to drop some more. Perhaps
ther VC's should be shifted back to Version 0.1 VC's. If so,
then two of the above games would be Draws which feels right.
The second game was a Republican blowout and I feel that should
certainly be a win to them.
Despite the Aftermath comments, my impression is the Bf109B is a
fragile aircraft with little firepower for bringing down the
SB's easily. The Rat is a match for the 109B. Did it have an
edge over the I-16 or was it down to pilot quality? The Rigid
Doctrine is probably the single biggest handicap they face in
this scenario, but if this is what the situation was
historically then that's fine.
From a design perspective, I really enjoy this scenario. What
draws me to it is exploring the early battles with the Bf109 and
also the size makes it really simple to run quickly. I'm just
left with the feeling that either I'm doing something really
wrong here to not down over half a dozen bombers, or the
historical outcome was a brilliant coup! I think the historical
outcome should be treated as a Nationalist decisive win at +22,
but cannot imagine winning this as Nationalists half of the
time.
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