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#Post#: 1873--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: February 23, 2019, 1:57 pm
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Okay, we'll give your victory levels a try. More data might
reveal whether these are good numbers or not.
#Post#: 2076--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: March 10, 2019, 12:38 pm
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Andrew (Republican) & I have now had a crack at this one.
Interesting scenario & a tough one for the Nationalists.
The high I-16s tallied the bomber formation on GT1 & piled in,
with the lead 109 flight following, having also tallied the
I-16s. Tallies were otherwise poor throughout but the remaining
Republican fighter squadrons were able to tally the bombers on
GT2 & attack head on to avoid escort reaction. The 109 flights
both broke on their first engagements (only suffering 1 loss
between them) but were severely hampered by the SSR allowing the
Republicans to nominate the primary combatant (clearly the
bombers...). the Cr32s failed to react repeatedly & eventually
just pitched in to help the bombers, with little success as, due
to the SSR, most combats were at -2 or more as the Republicans
used speed against the loaded bombers & the escort provided
little advantage beyond absorbing hits (& dying faster than the
bombers, albeit for fewer VPs...). Towards the end the
Nationalist fighters were all gone leaving 3 Republican fighter
squadrons free play against the bombers who were perhaps a
little lucky to escape with only 6 losses.
Fighter losses were 5 Nationalist vs 4 Republican (2 from bomber
defensive gunfire emphasising the ineffectiveness fo the
Nationalist fighters).
2 bomber squadrons bombed disrupted & 1 intact for 4 hits & 5 VP
on the fort.
Final totals:
Republican +17 (kills)
Nationalist +9 (4 kills, 5 bombing)
Final score +8; felt like a clear Republican win with an AtA
exchange ratio of nearly 3:1.
Thoughts:
The SSR allowing selection of primary combatants feels odd & out
of keeping with the game's meta narrative about air combat in
this period. It really troubled me when playing but, having gone
through the numbers later it perhaps has less impact than at
first appears. Diving Cr32s will manage a speed of 3 -1 for
rigid doctrine as they intervene to help the bombers whereas
the Republicans will attack initially at 5 (4+1 diving) or the
I-16s or 4 (3 + 1) for the I-153s. If the bombers lead the
Nationalist defence is 1 (loaded He111) +1 (additional Cr32
squadron) or 3 +1 for the Sm79s so the difference the SSR makes
is marginal except for the 109s. Arguably if the combat involves
He 111s & Cr32s the Republicans should go for the fighters as,
even with edge the Cr32s with rigid doctrine are more
advantageous than the He 11s1s with fighters in support!
we both felt the SSR was odd, and out of keeping with the
broader narrative of the game about escorting bombers. In
actuality having had a chance to think about it the SSR seems
much less important than it did as the Cr32s are at a huge
disadvantage here unless they can either react or force a
dogfight (even there they only have a 50:50 chance of being the
attacker). It does however make the 109s pretty ineffectual as,
barring very good tally rolls, the Republicans will get to the
bombers before etc 109s get to the Republicans. It also
incentivises the high I-16s to try & go for the bombers rather
than take on the Nationalist high cover-which doesn't seem to
fit the set up positions or narrative well.
One other issue in my mind is that the game plays out very
differently to the historical narrative which implies the escort
got the measure of the Republican fighters. Barring remarkable
die rolls I just can't see this happening as the scenario stands
which makes me feel that changes in either the scenario or the
narrative are necessary. I don't know enough detail about the
air war in Spain to have a view about the narrative (&I suspect
nor do many others) so this could perhaps be adjusted to fit....
We'll give it another go but initial thoughts would be:
Drop SSR3. it's unusual but not (IMHO) in a good way: What did
the Republican pilots know about bomber interception that eluded
everyone else over the following 6 years? In actual fact the
normal mechanics give the same outcome most of the time & I
don't think 2 flights of 109s (FP0, 1 with an experte,
protection 3...) are going to change things radically.
The narrative suggests the Republicans were willing to take
risks to get at the bombers. Perhaps a +1 cohesion modifier for
attacks on bombers would give the same effect & sit better with
the overall system?
The setup suggests the Chupetes were high cover but the
temptation is just to go for the bombers (especially with the
SSR). There's only a 1 in 6 better chance of tallying the lead
109 flight & provided they can get in amongst the bombers the
109s are severely disadvantaged anyway by the SSR so the
incentive for staying high to engage (or splitting) seems absent
to me. Possibly move the republicans 1 column R to encourage the
Chupetes to split & take on the high cover (which plays to their
relative advantages &, especially if SSR 3 comes out,
neutralises the best Nationalist fighters).
I think the historical narrative needs tweaked a bit to reflect
the way the scenario plays-at the moment it feels very much like
a description of a different event.
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2077--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Elias Nordling
Date: March 10, 2019, 1:13 pm
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I thought of the special rule too. It doesn't really provide the
right narrative but it gives the Republicans a small bonus so I
thought it a harmless piece of chrome.
Here's a suggestion that might provide a better narrative:
The Republicans have to pick turning fights against the bombers
if they can. When they do so, they can assign all hits achieved
to the bombers.
This would give the Republicans a small advantage but the
escorts a large one, helping with balance and giving tve
impression the tactic didn't work.
#Post#: 2081--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: March 10, 2019, 4:15 pm
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Excellent idea Elias!...take a bow:-))
We have just given this another run through with Elias'
suggested SSR (modified slightly to make it optional for the
Republicans to use turning-their is no reason to if attacking
bombers unsupported by fighters). This time the Chupetes stayed
high & engaged the 109s both of which broke against only one of
the 2 Chupete flights after splitting. The high altitude action
ended 4:2 in the Republicans favour & the remaining flight then
tallied th e bombers (rolled 6, needed 5+) to re engage. Lower
down the Republicans shot down 6 bombers & 1 fighter for the
loss of 6 fighters. 2 bomber squadrons disrupted & 4 hits for +5
VP
Final outcome:
Nationalists +13 (8 fighter kills, +5 for bombing)
Republicans +17 (6 bombers, 5 fighters)
This felt *much* better. The new SR makes sense & fits the
historical narrative well. We even had a single plane Republican
flight with an experte pursued home by 2 squadrons of Cr 32s
despite a +4 (Cr 32s)/ -3 combat the Republican experte survived
shooting down a Fiat into the bargain-compelling narrative!
We will give it a another go for VP balancing but this feels
much better. I think Elias has captured the situation with a
neat & simple (but highly effective) SSR. my suspicion is that
the Republicans had slightly the better of the dice & another
data point or two would help with VP balancing but I think this
one is nearly there. The game and the historical narrative are
starting to line up very well.
suggestion:
Replace SSR 3 with Elias suggestion
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2082--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: March 10, 2019, 4:17 pm
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Final comment: this felt to us like a draw (as a data point for
VP balancing)
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2087--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: March 11, 2019, 8:39 am
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So the proposed change to v0.4 is to go with Elias's suggestion,
which is:
In any combat involving bombers, the Republicans must choose a
turning fight, but all hits are scored on the bombers, not
shared between the bombers and any defending fighters.
Is that it?
What about the suggestion to set up the Republicans a column to
the right?
#Post#: 2088--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: pilotofficerprune
Date: March 11, 2019, 8:40 am
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Oh, and I forgot that we may need to look at the victory levels
and adjust the draw window down.
#Post#: 2094--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: March 11, 2019, 11:17 am
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I would be inclined to make the requirement for a turning fight
in any combat involving bombers and defending fighters-it seems
unnecessary to penalise the Republicans if they are attacking
unescorted bombers.
Thinking further on the column shifting I wonder if bombers and
escorts 2 left might e better. The intent is to strongly
encourage the high Chupetes to engage the 109s & not go for the
bombers. If the bombers are a bit further away & the tally odds
are significantly lower that would achieve the intended effect,
especially if the fighters can’t reach them on GT1 (whereas the
109s can reach the Chupetes)
Cheers
Gordon
#Post#: 2120--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Andrew Brazier
Date: March 15, 2019, 11:30 am
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Agree that the VP levels need adjustment, the Republicans find
it hard to pull off a win at present although we need another
game or two to better calibrate the VCs.
#Post#: 2183--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
DIR By: Gordon Christie
Date: March 23, 2019, 6:19 am
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Andrew & I have now completed 3 runs of this in total.
Bomber losses have been 5-6-5; Nationalist fighter losses 6-6-5;
Republican fighter losses 4-7-6
Bombing has resulted in 4-6-3 hits so 5-10-5 bombng VPs (6 hits
for +10 VP hinged on a pretty unlikely sequence of passed bomber
cohesion rolls)
Median result would seem to be:
Nationalist: likely 6 kills (the initial 4 was with the initial
SSR which helped the Republicans a bit); bombing 4-5 hits for
+5 VP; total +11
Republican: 5 bombers, 6 fighters---> +16 VP
I'd set the draw level at around +4 to +6; Nationalist win at +3
or less; Republicans +7 or more.
Overall though the scenario works reasonably well. Forcing the
Republicans into turning combats where fighters & bombers are
present works well; the Cr32s are pretty lamentable (which fits
the meta narrative well-biplanes are becoming obsolete).
We also moved the Republican low fighters 1 column R which
further encourages the Chupetes to take on & try & neutralise
the 109s.
Overall though I think we're happy.
Cheers
Gordon
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