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#Post#: 970--------------------------------------------------
O22 Bombers First
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 19, 2019, 4:26 am
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New scenario thread for playtest of Bombers First. Please do not
create a new thread for this scenario.
#Post#: 1243--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: Elias Nordling Date: January 27, 2019, 4:12 am
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V0. 1
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
In the setup, I put the veterans in the bombers, reasoning that
with special rule 3, a neat piece of chrome, they would be even
more useful there. It might have been a nistake, as the veteran
status turned out to be missed in the Republican fighter
cohesion checks.
Turn 1 saw the republicans mostly sucessfully tally. There was a
high altitude scrap between Messerschmitts and Chupetes that
ended after a couple of turns with one Me flight and one Chupete
flight joining the msin fighting. Only the SM79 was reached on
turn 1 by Republican fighters, and with speed 3 plus veteran
status, it was able to defend itself.
Turn 2, Nationalist fighters were able to cover the Republican
fighters that nevertheless got through to all the bombers. The
results were disappointing for the Republicans, and the
Nationalists successfully dogfighted them.
Turn 3 the Rrpublicans unexpectedly win all their fights and
send the Nationalist fighters home. 3,5 Republican squadrons are
still left. The Sm79 bombs at +0 and rolls 9 for 4 hits.
Turn 4: the Heinkels bomb before they can be further attacked by
Republican fighters, but at +0 and - 1 with low rolls, no
further hits are scored.
Turn 5-8: The Republican fighters tear into the Heinkels,
shooting down significant numbers while losing a couple of
fighters, before breaking off.
Score:
Nationalists: 3 VP bombing, 4 Republican ftrs: 7
Republican: 6 ftrs, 7 Heinkels: 20
-13: Republican massive win
Comments: I think this result might be an outlier due to high
Republican cohesion rolls so I am hesitant to start changing the
OOB or crew quality just yet. Putting the veterans in the
bombers was probably a mistake too as the bombing points are
never going to be decisive for a win.
Looking at the expected bombing results, the Nationalists can't
reasonably expect more than light damage on the fort on average,
for +3 points. I am hesitant to double the points from bombing
as it would only make the result swingier, but you might
consider giving the Republicans 2 point per fresh and 1 point
per disrupted bomber bombing instead. I'm not sure it is needed
and I kind of like the scenario showing how ineffective this
sort of bombing can be.
Not taking balance issues into account, a light bombing result
and an even loss ratio is probably the best the Nationalists can
hope for without a dose of luck, so I would put the VP threshold
at +3 for a Nationalist win.
The one setup change I would recommend right away is moving the
target 2 squares right, as there is very little time for the
Republican fighters to interfer with the bombers now. But not
more, as I like that there is a bit of an urgency to the
intercept.
Two typos: Redundant "each" for I15 setup, as there is only one
squadron. Aftermath: attemot instead of attempt.
#Post#: 1245--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: pilotofficerprune Date: January 27, 2019, 5:06 am
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So, following this test I’m listing the following proposed
changes:
(1) Move the fort target to column O.
(2) Go to a set number of bombing hits based on bomber status: 2
hits for unbroken; 1 hit for disrupted; 0 hits for broken.
(3) As it’s clear the Republicans will score larger than the
Nationalists, I’m reversing the way the VPs are counted. Now the
Nationalists subtract from the Republican VPs. The new
thresholds are:
+6 or less - Nationalist Victory
+7 to +10 - Draw
+11 or more - Republican Victory
#Post#: 1397--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: Elias Nordling Date: February 2, 2019, 8:25 am
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v0.2
Player: Elias Nordling (Solo)
This time I put veterans in the Nationalist fighters, but I'm
not sure it makes a massive difference. The republican fighters
jumped the bombers and some of the escorts to tie them up. There
was also a fight up high that prevented the Messerschmitt from
joining until late in the fight.
Moving the target now gives the Republicans enough time, and
they were able to put some hurt on the bombers, but they broke
early. Two bombers were disrupted, and I discovered that it
didn't make a difference with the current scoring and target.
Other losses were light.
Final score:
Republicans 3 bombers, 2 ftrs: 8
Nationalists: 3 points bombing + 4 Rep ftrs: 7
Total: 1 Nationalist massive victory
Felt like Nationalist marginal victory
Comments: There is a problem with the current bombing scoring,
in that the most the Nationalists can score is 6, which is light
damage on the target, and even with 2 disrupted bombers, they
still cause light damage. A bit too much of de-luck-ing. I also
tried rolling for bombing and scored 3 hits, so the current rule
isn't a bad approximation but the breakpoint comes wrong. You
could change it to 1 and 2 VPs instead of bombing hits, but that
would probably confuse players when it varies between scenarios.
Other than that, more data points are needed to calibrate the
score properly but I see no need to change the order of battle
or special rules. The Republicans will probably do better than
the historical description indicates, but is that a problem when
the scenario works as a game?
#Post#: 1404--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 2, 2019, 11:54 am
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Well, how’s this for a thought: why not make a new target
counter that is a Fort. Give it the following characteristics:
Damage value: 6
Defence Modifier: -1
VP: Whatever number suits the scenario (say, 8 or 10)
Flak: S0
Yes, I know we are stretched on counter space, but let me worry
about that. A bespoke counter might solve a bunch of problems.
As an aside, I was thinking of spending tomorrow working on
aircraft art. But I'm wondering whether a mockup countersheet
might be a far more useful task. Particularly as we are going to
have to tackle issues such as ID letters soon.
#Post#: 1405--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: Elias Nordling Date: February 2, 2019, 12:01 pm
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I'd like to see counter art in the Vassal module as soon as
possible, but that's just me.
A fort target with damage 6 would certainly help with the
rounding.
#Post#: 1408--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 2, 2019, 12:07 pm
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Well, I have no aircraft art for a countersheet right now. But I
can do my usual thing of mocking up squadron and flight blanks.
That tends to concentrate the mind when it comes to counter
content.
#Post#: 1420--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: pilotofficerprune Date: February 3, 2019, 6:35 am
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Okay, so I have added a Fort counter to the countersheet. This
necessitates some changes, and my proposed fixes are:
(1) Changed target from bunker to Fort.
(2) Change the draw window to +13 to +16.
#Post#: 1841--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: Agm84ssm Date: February 22, 2019, 12:44 pm
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The battle is divided into 2 combats. One at height 12 and
another at height 5 on the bombers. The Messers at level 12 do
tally on the Chupetes , killing 1 and dispersing the Republican
squadron.
On turn 2 all the I16s do tally on all the bombers and the
escorting CR32s do tally on the SuperMoscas. At upper height,
the 2 flights of Bf109 do tally again on the Chupete. The
Messers knock down another Chupete and break the republican
squadron The battle for the upper level is german although at a
cost. One flight of Bf 109 is broken and the other is dispersed.
Below there are 3 battles, one on each squadron of bombers with
very poor results. 1 He111 falls on flames and all opposing
planes maintain cohesion. The escort of Chirri gets hooked in
dogfigth 1 I16, distracting them from the attack to the bombers.
In turn 3, the SM79 continue towards the target free of attack
followed by the 2 squadrons of He111 on which the combats follow
. Republicans understand that He111 are the most fragile (speed
2). 1 flight of Bf109 is dropped in a dive and joins one of the
battles over the bombers. In none of the 3 combats there are
casualties. Only 1 squadron of He111 is dispersed. The
nationalists lose 1 squad of CR32 and another of Bf109 because
they break. The Chirri are lucky again and get a dogfigth with
an I16 preventing him from attacking the bombers. In that
dogfigth the nationals kills 1 I16 without losses although both
squadrons are broken.
In turn 4, The SM79 are reached by the I15 just arrived only to
lose 1 plane at the hands of the gunners of the bombers. The
He111 that close the formation is still under attack and 1
bomber is shot down. 2 squadrons of CR32 and 2 of I16 are
broken.
The bombers continue their flight now alone and without escort.
A squadron of I15 and another of I16 attack the He111. The SM79
are feared because they cost a lot to shoot down and with their
speed are difficult targets for the fighters.
In turn 5, no bombers can be destroyed and in exchange another
I15 falls and the squadron of Chatos is broken.
The bombers finally reach the target and begin their bombing
runs. They get 4 hits.
Only a single squadron of I16 is left in flight, which with a
great fortune in the cohesion rolls manages to keep attacking
for three consecutive turns although they do not achieve to
shoot down any other bomber.
Final score: -6
Nationalists: 4 hits on ground target. 2 I15 + 2 I16/10 + 2I16
Chupete = 10VP.
Republicans: 2 He111. 4 VP
Nationalists victory without discussion
The result is atypically low and the republicans had very low
dice in air combat. The nationalists were successful extracting
republican fighters from attacks on the bombers. The result of
the scenario is very similar to what happened historically
Suggestions
I really would not change anything. The scenario worked well.
The SSR of bombers as a primary defender is very intelligent and
extremely effective simulating the tactic used by the
Republicans to concentrate on the bombers and stick to them to
protect themselves from the escorts. My only doubt is that this
result is not normal.
#Post#: 1843--------------------------------------------------
Re: O22 Bombers First
By: Agm84ssm Date: February 22, 2019, 7:27 pm
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The battle begins with a combat at high altitude. Messers and
Chupetes tally each other. In order not to fight in inferiority
by being climbing, the republicans choose to enter Lufbery.1
Chupete is destroyed and both adversaries are dispersed.
Meanwhile, at low level bombers and republican attackers shorten
distances.
2 SuperMoscas squadrons make tally on the SM79 and the He111
that follow them. 2 escort squadrons tally the attackers and
follow them. The third escort squadron remains in reaction. 2
He111 are shot down and their bomber squadron is dispersed.
Above 2 Chupetes are destroyed by the Bf109 and the Chupetes are
broken.
In turn 3, 2 fights are organized over the He111. Republicans
avoid attacking the SM79. 2 He111 are destroyed. The worst thing
is that 3 squadrons of nationalists fighters break, including 1
flight of Bf109 that has descended to the level of the
bombers.During Turn 4, the attack on the bombers continues and a
fifth He111 is destroyed. 2 squadrons of I16 and 1 squadron of
CR32 break.
The bombers go ahead and now there is only one unit of I16 and
another of I15 attacking. A flight of Bf 109 is all the escort
available.
On turn 5 the Republicans concentrate on the rear squadron of
He111 and shoot down 2 bombers and scatter them but 1 I16 and 1
Bf109 break. Only one I15 squad remains active.
The bombing runs begin and the nationalists achieve 4VP. The
Republican knows from the previous game that the Chato are very
vulnerable and renounces to continue attacking
Score: +7
Nationalists: 4 VP against the fortificación + 3VP for 3
Chupetes
Republicanismo: 14 VP for 7 He 111
Draw (following the initial VP)
I feel the result it is a draw. Both adversaries achieved
partially their goals. The Nationalists got 75% damage over the
fort. The republicans got heavy losses against the heinkels
Suggestions
I think the most appropriate victory point window is
6 or less nationalist victory
+7 to +10 draw
+11 or more Republican victory
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